6. JON ACUFF: Goals Inspiring Enough to Ignore Netflix

Episode Transcript

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Jon: I, I think the older I get, the more I realize there’s a lot of holding Two mm-Hmm. Seemingly opposite things in your hands at the same time. Mm-Hmm. And I think contentment and ambition are one of them. 

Michael: Hi, I am Michael Hyatt. 

Megan: And I’m Megan Hyatt Miller. 

Michael:

And you’re listening to the Double Win Show. This week we’re talking to our friend John Acuff. I’m super excited to bring this interview with you because John has a kind of energy and humor and practical wisdom that you rarely see. 

Megan:

Well, I think he has a perspective on goal setting that is very complimentary to what we talk about and teach.

Um, I. Especially loved the part where he talks about goal setting and, uh, kids, like if you have teenagers like I do, or maybe a little bit younger kids and you’re thinking, how do I get him into this conversation? There’s a great little bit where he talks about that and it’s just, he’s just very practical and he is also, as all of our conversations are, he’s very vulnerable.

Very 

vulnerable and he talks 

about like his struggles and, and how goal setting has not come naturally to him and kind of came late in his life. So I think you’ll be encouraged by this.

Michael:He also talks a lot about mindset, but John has worked with companies like Nissan, Microsoft, FedEx, comedy Central. I.

He’s written several bestselling books including Finish Give Yourself The Gift Of Done. Love that subtitle. Mm-Hmm. Uh, soundtracks The Surprising Solution to Overthinking, And most recently, all it Takes is a goal, the three step Plan to Ditch Regret. Tap into your massive potential. 

Megan:

Mm-Hmm. I love that. He, he really inspired me about my own potential. And I think you’ll feel the same too. So here’s our conversation with John. 

Michael:John, welcome. We’re so excited you’re here. Yeah. I’m excited to sit close to you. Okay. 

Megan: Yeah. And we are in fact sitting quite close. Yeah. If you’re ever a guest on our show, cozy is the rule of Yeah.

The house. I love it. 

Michael: So, you know, increasingly here in Nashville where we both live Mm-Hmm.

Uh, there’ve been a lot of creatives, a lot of content creators. Yeah. Uh, who have moved here. And so I got a bunch of us together. This might have been like 2015. 

Jon: It was a long time ago. 

Michael: 2014. Yeah. And we got a bunch of people together. Who was there? Donald Miller, Josh Acts, uh, Josh Acts Lewis. How Lewis Howes.

Yeah. Oh, that’s right. He came to town. That was kinda the occasion. Yeah, totally. I think Jeff Goins maybe, I think Jeff Goins was there. Rory Vaden. Oh yeah. Yeah. And so we ended up, uh, taking some photos and we called it the Nashville Mafia. Yes. That was fun. 

Jon: That was nine years ago. Oh my 

Megan: gosh. Your hair probably wasn’t gray then.

Jon: It was on its way. It was on its way. It was like one night. It just decided Yeah. This is what we’re doing. I’m out. Yeah. Yeah. I’m started to wear readers now too. 

Megan: Oh, yeah. 

Jon: Where? Because I started to say things like this restaurant’s so dark. Yeah. Why is the font of the menu so small? But have you 

Megan: started pulling your camera out and turning the flashlight 

Jon: on?

No, that’s what I avoided. You have one of two options. Yeah. Readers. Yeah. Or flashlight. And the flashlight is a, might as well say like, I love murder. She wrote like, that’s just not, I’m not there. I’m not doing it. 

Megan: Yes. I love that. Okay. So on this show we talk about winning at work and succeeding at life.

Yeah. The double win. And we’re gonna talk about your work around goals. Sure. ’cause that is a big part of the double win. Mm-Hmm. So we’ll get to that in a minute, but I wanna kind of go down a little personal path. Yeah, totally. Um, that maybe you don’t talk about a whole lot. I don’t know, but I’d love to hear.

You know, what does it look like for you right now to win at work and succeed at life? Like, how, how does that look in your season of life? Your kids are older, you know? 

Jon: Yeah. And you travel a lot still. Yeah. And you travel a lot. Travel. Um, well, one, it’s not an either or. Yeah. Like, I don’t, I, uh, one of the things I tell people is that, um, contentment and ambition aren’t enemies.

Ooh. So I’m love very content. I’m also very ambitious. Okay. Those aren’t unpack 

Megan: that ’cause that’s a big idea. Yeah. That’s really big. 

Jon: So I think there’s a lot of people that think for me to be content means I no longer have ambition. Right. And I don’t think that’s true. Yeah. Um, there’s a lot of people that think for me to be ambitious, I can never stop.

I can never enjoy it. I can never pause. I can, and I think both can live in the same person. Mm-Hmm. I, I think the older I get, the more I realize there’s a lot of holding Two mm-Hmm. Seemingly opposite things in your hands at the same time. Mm-Hmm. And I think contentment and ambition are one of them. So I’m very content in my life.

Mm-Hmm. I love my, I can’t believe I got to, I have lunch downtown and walk here. And this like, we live in a postcard like we live, there are people vacationing. As I ate lunch by me, and then I’m gonna drive 10 minutes home. My kids have great schools here. Mm-Hmm. I love my family. And at the same time, I want to use my talents more.

Yeah. I wanna, I wanna steward my talents well. Mm-Hmm. I want to grow things. I want to have the business get bigger. So I always, that’s where I start from is that contentment, ambition aren’t enemies. And then, okay, in different areas of my life, am I putting time? Am I putting creativity? Um, do I have family goals?

Do I have personal goals? Do I have health goals? It’s not, if my business succeeds and my family fails, my business has failed. 

Megan: Right. 

Jon: Um, so I, I’ve been around, my big thing is I love looking at somebody who’s 10 years ahead of me, 12 years ahead of me, because I always say like, we have access to time machines.

Mm-Hmm. They’re called people who have already done what you’re trying to do. Mm-Hmm. And if you’ll be humble, you can learn from them. So I love to meet somebody who’s. 58, 62, 64 and go, what are they doing? How do I get there? 

Both: Yeah. 

Jon: Um, and how do I make sure that I don’t end up with a ton of money and kids that don’t talk to me?

Mm-Hmm. Or I don’t end up with a really amazing family, but my health, I can’t enjoy my grandkids. Yeah. ’cause I can’t, you know, I can’t move around. Mm-Hmm. So I’m always figuring, okay, which of these kind of levers do I need to be turning right now? Mm-Hmm. Where can I have goals? Because I, I just met a lot of leaders who were really successful but were on their seventh marriage.

Yeah. Or were really successful, but died early deaths because health hadn’t been a priority. Mm-Hmm. And I, so I, I’m pushing back on that idea that it’s one or the other. Yeah. Or it’s two of the five, you guys talk about the nine different things. Mm-Hmm. I think if you’re active, you can focus on nine. Yeah, 

Both: I 

Jon: think so too.

Well, 

Michael: do you, do you find yourself having to constantly adjust? ’cause for me, we often use the metaphor of balance. Yeah. And one thing about balance is you’re constantly adjusting. Right? Mm-Hmm. So I’m maybe over dialed on work this week and I gotta pull back a little bit on that and I’ve gotta put some more time into.

My health or my family or whatever. But is that true for you too? 

Jon: Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, there’s seasons where my wife will, you know, will say, we are all here, where are you? And what she means is, I’m physically present but mentally absent. Yeah. And it’s because I’ve got a big work project and I’m kind of thinking on that and I have to pull that back.

Um, but I was thinking about that like especially in, I think that we write too many books about burnout and not enough about stewarding your gifts. Mm-Hmm. Like a lot of the people I know who would go, well I don’t wanna deal with burnout. I’m like, you’re a long way from giving all you got. Yeah. Like that’s not your current issue.

You feel tired and bored ’cause you’re doing the wrong thing, but you’re not, like, it’s not ’cause you’ve expended every gift you have. So I would say my wife holds me in check on that. I have friends that’ll say. Hey, we haven’t noticed you at this meeting, you know, in four weeks in a row. Is everything good?

Um, I can measure that on, on running and working out. Am I missing workouts? Like, is that dialed down? But I don’t, I I think the idea of balance has a degree of perfectionism with it. If you’re not careful, where every week won’t be the same. I don’t like when influencers online go, here’s my schedule. And it’s always exactly like this.

I don’t have it always exactly like this week. I’m much more flexible now. Like one of the things I’ve learned as I got older is that rigid goals are fragile goals. Mm-Hmm. So if I create. A system, a schedule that has to be followed to the letter every day, that’s when I get in trouble. Mm-Hmm. I have to have the flexibility, um, to react to something new.

So if I, like, if a teen, if one of my teenagers asks me to do something, I clear my calendar because a teenager asking you to do something with them is a miracle. It’s a gift. So like two weeks ago, it was a Monday at 9:00 AM and my daughter was like, Hey, can we go to the coffee shop? And of course, on Monday at 9:00 AM I’m in grind mode.

Like I’m in grind mode, but I also recognize she’s going to college in the fall. There’s not a million of these. And then the next day, my oldest daughter was like, can we play pickleball at 8:00 AM on this Tuesday? Again, I’m thinking, but like I know of those two decisions, I’ll, I’ll be able to work. All the time on any Tuesday, I want the chances of my daughter asking me, can we play pickleball?

Pretty narrow. Yeah. And because of the nature of my job, I have a little more flexibility and I’m able to make those choices. There’s other times when I didn’t, I didn’t manage that well as a, as somebody who really enjoys working and I had to pull it back. 

Other: Hmm. 

Michael: Okay. So just to follow up to that, forgive me, Megan, we fight each other for questions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We get so energized. Yeah. Um, so you said that there’s, there’s not a conflict between ambition and contentment. Yeah. But. We teach something called the ideal week, which I also don’t think is in conflict with the idea of spontaneity. Yeah. And reordering your priorities. Totally. So do you have kind of a framework that you shoot for?

A 

Jon: hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. So 

Michael: what’s that look like? 

Jon: So I know that in the morning I’m gonna try to get up between five 15, it’s six 15 ish this morning was five 15, yesterday was six. So what’s, what’s the 

Michael: difference how much sleep 

Jon: you’re getting? Well, like today I knew I had a meeting with an accountability buddy at 7:00 AM and I still wanted to get some reading Bible time and before then, so I just had to back it up.

Gotcha. I just say in order for me to like. If you love your life, getting up early just means more time to love your life. And I was never a morning person. Yeah. Like, I just wasn’t. It’s just as I got older and as I started to enjoy my life more, I was like, I can just do more if I get up a little earlier.

And so I got, you know, between five 15 to six 15 ish when I get up. Um, I’ll do a quiet time. I’ll read, um, I’ll, I’ll often work out if it’s, if it’s a, a season where I can do it in the morning, but sometimes I’ll put it in the afternoon. Mm-Hmm. If I’m in the middle of a big book writing season and I know my best hours thinking wise are from seven to 11, I’m not trained.

I’m not a sponsored athlete. I. I can’t give the best energy time to a casual activity like running it’s important. Helps me with mental health. Yep. Makes my pants fit, makes me a nicer person, but it doesn’t get prime time, hour in certain seasons. So if I’m in a book writing season seven to 11 is me trying to write, and then I’ll do meetings from like one to four, and then I’ll try to turn off at like five.

And then I would go to bed earlier than my wife. She’s like, I, like, I’m a go to bed early guy. She’s like, no, let’s stay up till 10. And I’m like, all right. And then I’ll read some fiction at night. So nonfiction during the day, fiction at night. Um, and then that’s, that’s pretty much it. But yeah, I try. So I try to, that’s the schedule.

I try to, and, but then if something important comes up, then I’ll move stuff around. So today I met with Bill Hampton, um, who’s helping me with my business. And he was like, Hey, we can meet at eight 30. I didn’t say to him, well. That’s my writing hours. And so I’m in charge of it. My wife’s like, you asked me, uh, like, when do you have to pull back?

I have to pull back when my wife will go, wow, you have a really bad boss and it’s you. Mm-Hmm. So like, if, if I am, if I’m making myself do stuff and I’m acting like somebody else is making me do it, and I go, I, I gotta do this. She’s like, oh, your boss is terrible. Like, your boss makes you work all night.

And like, and it’s you. And so that’s a wake up call for me. Yeah. So in that situation, I go, Bill’s time is valuable. It’s kind of rare. I’m gonna shift my schedule to honor his time. It’s gonna be really important to me. It’s gonna be high energy time. That’s worth being flexible. But I don’t meet with Bill every week, you know?

So I, Mm-Hmm. I’m, I love the ideal week. I love the flexibility because what I see is go-getters. Tend to be perfectionists. Mm-hmm. And, you know, you’re too tight if you react in anger to, to spontaneity. Mm-Hmm. So if your first response is you’re mad, like if my kid comes into their, and that’s happened before.

Yep. The joke I do is like, have you ever been doing a quiet time in the Bible about patience and your kid interrupts it and go, I’m reading the Bible, I’m doing yoga, I’m learning peace and meditation. Stop it. And you’re like, oh, I just did the opposite of the, and so that, I’m always kind of keeping that in balance.

Megan: Yeah. That’s really good. You mentioned a couple of minutes ago the idea of stewardship and it was, uh, closely followed by the idea of ambition. Yeah. How do you think those things are related? Or different? 

Jon: Well, I think one, none of us have the ability to fully understand what we’re capable of. That’s part of why we need community.

Mm-Hmm. Like we, like Roy Williams said it, you can’t read the label from inside the bottle. Yeah. So I need other people in community to go, man, I think you, you did 10, I think you could actually do 12. And I need other men, other people that love me to call me. Beyond myself. Mm-Hmm. So that’s part of the ambition.

That’s part of the stewardship. Yeah. ’cause there’s so many times in my life where I’ll get it to good enough and I’ll na my body is naturally like that. That’s enough. Mm-Hmm. That’s enough. And I’ll need somebody else, or I’ll need a goal to call me out. Um, a friend of mine said it this way. He said, I put my running stuff by the front door so that when I wake up in the morning, I beat my brain to the running stuff.

And by the time my brain realizes what I’m doing, I’m a mile down the street by the time it wakes up and goes, wait, no, no, no. I don’t wanna run today. It’s like, oh, I’m so sorry. We’re, we’re two miles from home. Yeah. We at least have to do four total. So there’s other tricks like that, that I do to go, okay, how do I stay ambitious?

How do I, and then the other thing is, it’s so cheesy. It sounds so woo woo, but I’m learning to listen to my body. 

Megan: Yeah. 

Jon: Where like, I now have a better barometer of, wow. I feel really thin. I feel my favorite definition of like burnout is the one in, um, it’s like so dorky. Lord of the Rings, Frodo says. I think no, as Bilbo says, I feel like too little butter spread over too much toast, and there’s a thinness to that.

Mm-Hmm. So I know when I’m running a gunning, if I’ve done too many commitments, too many meetings, like I’m thin, it just feels thin. And so I know I need to kind of refill. Hmm. Um, but again, I think that I, I meet more people who are struggling with boredom and lack of purpose, then I do burnout. 

Michael: I agree a hundred percent.

And I, and they confuse them.

Jon: Yeah. And they confuse ’em. And so that’s where I think there’s been seasons in my life where I didn’t do much until I was like my mid thirties. And I, I was kinda like, I wait a second, I gotta wake up to this. Yeah. And so now I feel this great like joy of chasing things and I yearn for other people to do the same.

Mm. Like I get, I get passionately angry in a righteous way for other people to be who I know they can be. Yeah. Like, so that’s kind of how I’d like to lead. 

Michael: I love that. Mm-Hmm. So you’re a high output guy. You’ve written how many books now? I had 

Jon: nine, 

Michael: nine books. Wow. Mm-Hmm. Um, you speak a ton. So a lot of output.

What do you do for input? 

Jon: Oh, I do so much. I, uh, you read a lot. I do a ridiculous amount of input and, 

Michael: and, and you really, um, motivate me on that. Yeah. It’s really challenged me and inspired me. So I want you to talk a little bit about that. 

Jon: So, like, this morning, um, when I woke up, I started to make coffee. I was listening to a Les Brown audio.

Mm-Hmm. So I, somebody asked me the other day, like, who are the young voices that you’re following? And there’s a ton that are out there, but I also love the old voices. So like I’ve re That’s awesome. Rediscovered the Jim RoHS, the, you know, Dennis Waitley, the Les Browns, you know. And so I’m going, so I, there’s an audio I was listening to while I was making coffee, and he makes me wanna run through a wall, like a Kool-Aid man.

Like, he’s so positive. So then I, some of 

Megan: the people listening don’t know what you’re talking about. 

Jon: Yeah. The Kool-Aid. Oh, Kool-Aid, man. Yeah, I know. Well, they, like our kids would look at you like what? Like he would run right through the wall and say, oh yeah. When he got in there and it was always an inappropriate room, like it was a courtroom scene.

Right. And somebody drank Kool-Aid. And so for me, I listen to that. So that’s input. Um, I wrote some down that’s input. And then like when I run, I listen to like 20 minutes of a sermon, 20 minutes of a book, 10 minutes of music. Hmm. So there’s input there. When I drove here, I was listening to something, so I try to.

And there’s other times where I’ll go for a walk in the woods without any audio input. Mm-Hmm. So there’s times I’m taking breaks from it. Um, and then I limit empty input. Like we got rid of Netflix six months ago and here I am still alive. Like still able What? Yeah. Still able to do it. You might 

Megan: be the only person 

Jon: on the planet.

I know it. We’d had it since proof of concept. We’ve had it for 18 years. We used to get it in the mail where you had to rearrange your cue and it was just like, we’re not watching a bunch of tv. And I’m not against tv. It sounds so like puritanical. I just am like, I’d rather spend 30 minutes with a fiction book than like, I know it’ll be 90 minutes with like, something that might not fill me in the way I wanna be filled.

Mm-Hmm. Um, and then there’s conversations. So I had a great meeting today with Bill. I was learning from him. And then I’m always collecting ideas like Jordan Montgomery, I had him on my podcast the other day and he said something like, when you’re correcting somebody, think about call up, not call out. How do you call them up versus calling them out?

Ooh, I like that. And I was like, that’s a really, I hadn’t thought about it. That’s a great handle for that. Um, you know, and so I collect a lot of ideas. I’m serious about, you know, when I’m in a conversation with somebody, I’m asking them questions. Like, I love to ask the question, what are smart people doing that I’m not doing?

Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. So like, if I go talk to somebody, Hey, what do you like? And they might go, well, I saw another speaker and, and she did this, or I saw another. So I’m like, oh, that’s interesting. And so I try to look at every. Interaction is a chance for me to learn. Um, and then I collect a lot of ideas and then I have to find a place for them, and then I share as many as possible.

Michael: You know what’s funny is, um, we had another version of the podcast, right? And it was just Megan and I talking Mm-Hmm. And before that I had a monologue podcast where I just talked Yeah. And I dreaded it. Mm-Hmm. I absolutely hated it. I got tired of hearing his talk, but it was all output. Yeah. Now we’ve changed the format where we’re interviewing people like you and I can’t get enough.

It’s so fun. It’s so fun because it’s all input and I’m learning. Yeah. 

Jon: And you get to have conversations you wouldn’t otherwise have. Yeah, exactly. That 

Megan: you’d wanna have, that you’d wanna have, you probably wouldn’t have dinner with that many people. You wouldn’t cross paths with ’em. Like, yeah. Yeah. 

Jon: So I, so I think I try to look at input as a lot of different, in a lot of different forms, whether it’s music or being quiet and thinking or it’s books or it’s, you know, and, and so I just know that like.

But one of the things I say is I don’t believe in a writer’s block. I believe in idea bankruptcy. And if you can’t write, it just means your idea bank is empty. And so how do you go refill that? Mm-Hmm. Like I never sit down with a blank piece of paper. I always bring a ton of friends and that’s where the idea Mm-Hmm.

Kind of process comes in. 

Megan: Yeah. So what about self-care for you? And I’m not just talking about like going on a run, like when you think about kind of the 360 version of you. Sure. What does that look like for you in this season? 

Jon: Well, I mean, it’s sleep, you know? Yeah. Like last night I got seven and a half hours.

Mm-Hmm. And so it’s like not being casual about sleep, um, it’s like, like self-care is for me about eating too. Mm-Hmm. Like, I, I know now the point where I go beyond what’s gonna make me feel good. 

Megan: Yeah. 

Jon: So like, I, like last night I brought home half of this pasta dish. ’cause I was like, I could totally eat this whole thing, but then I wouldn’t feel good the rest of the night.

Yeah. Mm-Hmm. And I, I value feeling good over that, that moment. Mm-Hmm. And so like sometimes it’s figuring out where my edges and going. Okay. Yeah. This is, yeah, this is beyond the edge. Um, so I think that’s part of my self-care. Um, definitely getting up early and having some time by myself. Um, admitting I’m an introvert, you know, that I have, you are a, I have a ton of introverted tech, uh, you know, tendencies.

And so really is that 

Megan: like a new revelation to you? Oh, a 

Jon: hundred percent. But not, but like, you don’t read a hundred books if you spend a lot of time with people, you know, like that. Like, so like, for me, so, and here’s how I know it. Like, it’s EI have an easier time in a keynote than I do a panel. ’cause a panel is extroversion.

A keynote is introversion. Huh. People think my job is extroverted. It’s not. 

Other: Yeah. 

Jon: There’s one person with one mic. I control that whole situation. Yeah. It’s not a conversation. A panel is extroverted. Mm-Hmm. That’s, that’s more challenging to me. Interesting. So I think learning about that, about myself, um, connecting with friends as part of my self-care.

Mm-Hmm. Um, I go see this guy chip dod for counseling. So like being in a Yeah. Active counseling relationship. Mm-Hmm. Like not just a crisis counsel relationship. Yeah. But a like. I need to tune up every six weeks. Yeah. So I don’t wanna, you know, um, that’s part, that’s part of the self-care. Um, and then, yeah, running is a big part of it.

I do, I’ve done 64 CrossFit workouts this year, and I think I’ve run like four 20 miles. Oh. And I know that ’cause I have a goal and then I’m walking X amount of miles. Uh, and then we’re taking, we’re taking a month off in July, and that’ll be our third year we’ve done that. 

Other: Wow. 

Jon: And I’ve never been able to do that.

And I work toward that and I take, I don’t take that for granted at all. I had eight days of vacation years, most of my, my mm-Hmm. You know, I would have to be like, well how sick is the kid? Yeah. Like, is it worth a day off? Yeah. Um, so like that, like. That’s what I think people don’t see is like, even though I’m going, going, going like, we’re gonna turn off for a month.

Mm. 

Both: And 

Jon: we’re, you know, it’s, I’m gonna be very, you know, chill and very, you know, kind of reconnecting with new ideas and Yeah. I won’t monitor that for performance. That’s the other thing, like, I had a friend, I had a friend go a sabbatical and he was like, I might hire a sabbatical coach. And I was like, that’s how you know you need a sabbatical because now you’re now you’re gonna go try to be the best at sabbatical.

Yeah. Like, you’re gonna win sabbatical. And I was like, oh. And so I think that’s part of it too, is like not trying to monetize every moment is self-care for 

Megan: me too. Yeah. 

Michael: There’s so many questions I have here, but one of the questions I had was about boundaries. Mm-Hmm. Is that challenging for you? Um, 

Jon: it’s challenging for me because I want to be liked, like I would say where my boundary struggle is I want people to really like me.

That’s my problem. So it’s hard for me to say no. Um, and it’s hard for me to not over promise in the moment and then get home and go, oh, I wish I hadn’t said yes to that. Yeah. And, you know, so that part, that part is hard. Um, I, it’s also hard, like with work, I’ll know, like my wife. The thing she’ll catch me at is working.

So she like, if, if I disappear for 10 minutes and it’s supposed to be a Saturday, and she comes up and I’m on email, she’s like, whoa. Well, well, well, Mr. I just need to get something outta the office. Now you’re answering an email. So that’s a challenging boundary for me because I love what I do. 

Megan: Like your boundaries with yourself.

Jon: Boundaries, myself. Boundaries. Yeah. I struggl with that too, is the promise that I made to her. 

Megan: Yeah. 

Jon: Um, so yeah, I, I think boundaries that, that way are challenging. But the biggest one would definitely be I really, really want to be liked by people and that could be healthy and unhealthy. Yeah. And when it’s unhealthy, I’ve got no boundaries.

And I’m like, I’m saying yes to the person that’s in front of me while saying no to everybody else, including family. Yeah. And I think that that can be really challenging and 

Megan: that’s often invisible. I mean, we don’t, we’re not conscious of that in the moment necessarily. While we’re saying yes, because we’re caught up in, you know, that’s exciting.

Feeling liked and having novelty and all of that. But then we don’t remember. Oh, but that means, well, and 

Jon: here’s the other thing, boundary wise is learning to say no without needing anger to be the reason. Right? So sometimes in order for me to be brave enough to say no, I have to like say to all my feelings, Hey, who will handle this one?

And rage is like, I got it. And then like somebody asked me something very like, chill and I overreact ’cause I feel insecure. And then a, and then it’s angry and then I have to apologize. And so like I’m learning to set boundaries. That aren’t long, that aren’t disclaimer. Mm-Hmm. I would So sorry. Like that.

Don’t apologize. Mm-Hmm. But are just short and they’re calm and they’re not like, I’m mad you asked me. You know, like, yeah. Those kind of boundaries are right. Doesn’t make the other person 

Megan: wrong or you wrong. No, Uhuh. Yeah. 

Jon: I, I find and are true. It’s a lie if I say I would love to do that, but Yeah. If I really wouldn’t love to do it, I just lied.

Yeah. So also listening to the words I’m saying and going, oh, that, that was a lie. I wouldn’t love to do this. Yeah. Like, I would hate to do this. Yeah. I, 

Michael: I’m really trying to get to the place where I can say no without feeling the need to explain. Yeah. You know, just knows, like Oprah says, it’s a complete sentence.

Yeah. I had another question, and this is just my own curiosity. What’s your Enneagram number? 

Jon: Uh, so that’s funny you say that. I was on Ian’s podcast. Yeah. And he, Ian Kron. Yeah. Ian Kron, he said. Because I’ve tested at seven for a while, but I, I think I’m a three. I think you are too. Yeah. And he was like, but really healthy 

Michael: one.

Jon: And Dave, uh, Dave, uh, Dave Barnes said to me, he’s like, you’re either a three or you’re the most goal-driven seven. Who’s ever existed? I was like, yeah, I think I’m an achiever. I think I, I, yeah. Like, ’cause when something doesn’t have a point, even if the point is just to have fun, I’m like, what are we, what are we even doing right now?

Yeah. What are we even? And so you struggle with that? 

Both: I do. Yeah. So I’m, I’m three. I would say 

Jon: three. 

Both: Yeah. 

Megan: Yeah. 

Jon: So. 

Megan: I have one. Let’s go. Quick thing. So I just finished reading Cal Newport’s book, slow Productivity. Oh yeah. One of the things he talks about is how in kind of a burnout culture or an overwork culture that the way that we know when it’s time to stop working is stress.

Both: Ah. 

Megan: Like that’s sort of the only acceptable reason not to continue working. Yeah. Is stress. Do you find that to be true? 

Jon: Yeah. I like how do you know when it’s time to stop working? I have to set boundaries on stopping. 

Megan: Yeah. 

Jon: So like, and I have to, like, I kinda look at it, when we had young kids, we would do outdoor activities that made it difficult for them to have their phone.

So kayaking. Yeah. Naturally made it difficult, right. For them to have the phone. We didn’t have to have the phone fight. You’re in a boat, there’s water like, so I like to do activities that make it difficult for me to work. Mm. So I would have a hard time if Jenny said, let’s just sit on the couch for three hours today.

It’s a Saturday. And do nothing. I would have a hard, like I would feel restless in that moment. Mm-Hmm. I can do some of that, but like, if it was a four hour stretch of us just being like, just sitting there, 

Michael: it’s a great hack. 

Jon: Versus if she said, Hey, let’s go on a hike and have a long conversation. Yeah.

Where we plan the next year. Yeah. Like, let’s be like one, we’re getting the endorphins, we’re outside. Yeah. So good for you. That for me makes it hard for me to work. Mm-Hmm. It’s very difficult for me in the middle of a hike or for me in the middle of a card game, you know, like, yeah. So I like active recovery that way.

Yeah. Versus like, versus just sitting there. Yeah. Like I know that about myself and so I try to find ways that I make it difficult for me to work. Um, you know, and difficult for me to plug back in. Mm-Hmm. Um, or grind or grow. Yeah. Or another boundary would be like, I like to sketch. If I post me sketching online, it’s over.

Like now I’ve got an audience. Yeah. So like, I’m trying to find things that are for me that I don’t grow, that I don’t share that I like. And it kind of reminds me Al Andrews our mutual friend. Mm-Hmm. He said one time to me, he said, is it ever hard for you to have an idea and not share it immediately? And I was like, yeah, not even immediately, which platform?

Everywhere. And he goes, well, right now you have a keg party lifestyle. Like you’re serving light beer. And people are coming in, getting idea, idea, idea. He said, you need some wine ideas. You need some ideas you have on a shelf for nine years, 10 years, 11 years. Talk with a small group of friends, but let them ferment, let them grow, let them strengthen.

So I’m also like, what’s the wine idea that I’m quietly somewhere Yeah. Growing and I’m tending it. Love that. But I don’t need it to be out and about. Mm-Hmm. Like, and, and so I, and then like a friend of mine, an accountability partner. He said this to me maybe a month ago. It’s kind of talking about input.

And he said, people who say on their, you know, on your deathbed you’ll never say you wished you worked more or spent more time in the office, hated their jobs and didn’t like the people they worked with. Like, that’s like the only way you say that is if you hated the office and hated the people you worked with.

Hmm. If you loved what you did and felt like you were impacting the world and love the people you work with, spending lots of time with them is a good thing. And I think that, so I pushed back on that idea of like. I don’t want a job I have to escape from. Mm-Hmm. I can overdo it. Just like I have a compulsive streak where I can go, like I do one thing I love and I go, I bet a hundred would be even better.

Yeah. So like Lego, I did that with Lego sets. Like I bought a Lego set. I’m like, this is pretty good. And then I bought like 

Megan: 50, 

Jon: like over a period, over a period of time. But it was like, like, are these 

Megan: displayed in your house somewhere? 

Jon: As many as my wife will let me. Yeah. Like, but like eventually it was like I didn’t have joy in it the same way.

Yeah. ’cause I had overdone it. Yeah. So I’m very, as I’m, as I approach 50, I’m like, okay, I don’t want to take this joy past joy into compulsion. I don’t wanna take this joy. So what’s the line? How do you know? Well, sometimes, you know, ’cause you go over it and you, and like sometimes like healthy for me is recognizing quickly when I’ve gone over it and pulling it back.

Mm-Hmm. I don’t need the 40th Lego set. Yeah. On the third I go. Let’s take our time. Yeah. Let’s really, I feel like we’re sprinting through this now. That’s the other thing. Yeah. It’s like I feel like we’re sprinting through this. Same with books. Like I was listening to books at 1.6 speed and I was like, this is panic attack speed.

Like that’s too fast. Like it just wasn’t enjoyable. Yeah. And I wasn’t getting anything out of it. Yeah. And it stressed me. It was like having a really small person talk quickly in your ear. And I was like, this isn’t, so now I pulled it back to 1.2 ’cause one is too slow for most readers. Like, yeah, it’s so true.

Kill kills me. Agree. 1.25 or 1.2. Perfect. Perfect, perfect. 

Megan: They make you read slow. When you go read your books, they tell you to read slow and you’re like, no one talks about this. So things like 

Jon: that have been helpful. Like when I go past it and I pull it back and I go, okay, that’s, that’s right. Oh, here’s another one.

I won’t run a marathon. I’ve run 10 half marathons. My wife knows if you do a marathon, you’re gonna get into like compulsive training. Like yeah. That’s where you’re headed. So I had a commitment to me and to her, I’m like, you’re right. I’ll do half marathons. They’re great. And I know that it would become an ego thing where I would just want to tell people I ran a marathon.

Like Yeah. It wouldn’t, for other people it’s completely healthy. Yeah. For me. Half marathon is the healthy boundary and I love them and they’re great and I run a lot, but that’s the boundary. 

Megan: Have you always been good at self-awareness? 

Jon: No. Like I’ve, I’ve been good at self-awareness, but not self action. I.

There’s a lot of people who are amazing at self-awareness. That’s a 

Both: current distinction, 

Jon: but they don’t do anything. 

Both: Yeah. And 

Jon: so I think I was always intuitive because, you know, my dad’s a pastor, he’s a communicator. I come from a family of communicators. Mm-Hmm. So they’re good at expressing emotions and, and like saying words, but I, it took me a while to connect that to, okay, so what does that mean on a Tuesday?

Yeah. So what does that mean on a Wednesday? Yeah. Hmm. Like, I, I think about that. There’s a, a guy named Caleb Hammer who does, um, financial audits. Really fascinating guy online blowing up and he’ll tell people, you’re not a credit card person. He’s like, that’s not a bad thing or a good thing. You just aren’t built for credit cards.

Mm-Hmm. Like the way you function. You’re not a credit card person. I love that framework of, there’s some things I’m not, I’m not a marathon person. Yeah. That doesn’t mean like that’s bad or good for anybody else. That’s just I know that about me. Yeah. But I’m a big believer, like, you should keep an owner’s manual.

Like you should have a running owner’s manual of all that worked for me. Love that. That didn’t work for me. Oh, this is the time I need to go to bed. Or this, like, when I do this, it gives me joy. ’cause I think we forget those things again and again and again. Yeah, no doubt. And so for me, I’m, you keep relearning ’em.

Yeah. And keep relearning them. ’cause everybody’s had the experience where they do something they love and they go, why haven’t I done this for three years? Mm-Hmm. Or you go to a coffee with a friend, you go, that filled me up. Like, why haven’t we? Mm-Hmm. And so that’s what fe self-awareness feels like to me.

Oh, I like that. Yeah. Like how do you turn into self action. 

 

Michael: I love that. Let’s turn the, the corner and talk about goals. Sure. We’ve written on goals. We have courses on goals. You’ve written on goals. Yeah. Have you always been a goal setting guy? 

Jon: No. No. Um, okay. That’s interesting. No, like I about that. I ask that.

I love that question. ’cause I’ll meet people and go, were you, did you have like a small business in the womb? Like, were you like selling things in the maternity ward? Sometimes you meet entrepreneurs. I like that. And they’re like, I had eliminate Stan. I was three. Um, no. Like it took me till my mid thirties.

Like I was really, and I think that’s why I feel so passionate now. Like I hit a career plateau. I was a senior content designer at Autotrader and there was no super duper senior content designer position. I had hit the ceiling, I was done, and my wife was kind of like, Hey, like, you either need to do something else or like, we’re stuck.

And like, we had no money. I had no time. And that’s when I started to blog. Like I started to go like, I’m gonna write some, and a friend at work encouraged me to do it. I didn’t even come up with the idea. And then I started to really like it. And then, and I talk about this in, um, my book, all it takes a goal.

Like then once I had a desire, I wanted to feed it more time. I feel like the desire gives you discipline. Not the other way. I, I’ve never met somebody that just woke up one day and said, today I’ll have persistence. Like today I’ll have discipline. Like it’s always in the service of something greater than you have right now.

Right. So like my shorthand for that is, I want you to find a goal you love so much. It makes Netflix look boring. Like, ’cause I, I watched less TV in that season. Not ’cause I was disciplined because I was like, man, if I do, if I get up an hour early and I, ’cause I didn’t stay up late last night watching Alias, then I can write more for, I can write the blog for another hour.

That’s amazing. Like TV was giving me nothing. 

Both: Hmm. And like 

Jon: that’s when I started in the commute. I would practice speeches in my car as I drove to work. ’cause it was dark. I didn’t have any other time. I would give my speeches. To the steering wheel. Like, and so, and, but I, I missed that hour for five years of that commute.

Yeah. And then when I had a thing that I really wanted and I was like, this thing needs to be fed time. I got, I got two kids under the age of four, full-time job, Atlanta commute. I was like, oh, I’ll do that. And then on the drive home I’ll call freelance clients ’cause I’ll start to freelance. And so then that’s when goals, I just felt like goals are the fastest way to get anything you want.

Agree. And so then I, I couldn’t do enough. And then it was like I talked to other people and they’d been doing ’em since they were 22 and I’d be so jealous. I’d be like, oh, you have a 12 year head start. And then like, but then I meet a ton of people that are like, nah, I don’t really do goals. I don’t, and I’d be like, how are you not, they like, what is your desire?

Watch greatest 

Michael: hack. 

Jon: Yeah. So that’s what got me into goals. 

Michael: So what did you think you knew about goals before you started researching it that you learned? Was kind of myth. 

Jon: Yeah, that’s a, that’s a great question. Um, I think I wasted a lot of time on blame and victimhood. Mm-Hmm. So I would look at other people and go, oh, it must be nice.

They must have connections. They must have money already. They must have, like, I did a lot of time blaming versus sitting down and going, okay, how do I take personal responsibility for where I am? What amount? You know? And, ’cause you could say I’m too busy. That’s just a form of blame. Like, I would do amazing things if I wasn’t too busy.

Yeah. And so when I, when I stopped and I was like, wait a second. People like me get to do goals. That was the biggest, that was the biggest revelation was like, it’s not for special people or different people or privileged people or rich people or whatever. Like anybody can do them. And there’s like, Mel Robbins has this thing where like, no one’s coming.

She has this rift that’s really popular. It’s like, no one’s coming. No one’s coming. It’s gotta be you. And the reverse is true too. No one’s stopping you. Like no one is coming like Mm-Hmm. When I started to write, there weren’t a hundred people that showed up. And like, you don’t get to write. Like, I was kinda like, oh, if nobody’s gonna stop, then I’m gonna keep doing this.

And then I, like the biggest revelation was that the door was unlocked the whole time. I just had to turn the handle. And so like, I think I made a lot of excuses early on. I’m like, well, here’s why I can’t do this, or that’s for other people and, and ch and knowing that I got to do it and it was possible, changed everything.

Mm. 

Megan: What have you found, um, to be the secrets to achieving goals? 

Jon: Um, I mean, one is desire. I think we have a really hard time admitting desires or being okay with desires. Why do you think. Well, I think sometimes we have broken soundtracks from our family. Mm-Hmm. Um, sometimes it’s cultural. Sometimes we grow up in a faith conversation that prevents, like there’s a musician here in Nashville that told me, um, he’s a Christian musician.

He said, if you buy a $90,000 suburban, Christians say, good for you. It’s a family car. If you buy a $90,000 BMW, they say Jesus wrote a donkey. Like, you really shouldn’t have used that same amount of money. Yeah. Just a different brand, different interpretation, different judgment. Yeah. So I think sometimes you bring into your own self-limiting beliefs or whatever phrase you want to use.

Um, you know, I, I had a friend, uh, Steven s Goggins and his dad used to say, S Goggins, don’t get ahead. S Goggins, get by. And so you hear that a hundred times as a kid, that that’s a fam like here’s the family line. Yeah. So sometimes I think we bring stuff like that into them. I think we make them harder than they need to be.

Mm-Hmm. Um, I meet people that’ll go, I wanna write a book. And I’ll go, that’s great. And they go, I wanna write a book so my dad knows my career choices are all right. And I’m like, whoa, whoa. No wonder it’s hard for you to write. 

Megan: Right. Take it to their, you just have, it’s 

Jon: like, you just have to prove to your dad you’re a good person.

As you write. Like every word’s gonna be torture. Like, yeah. Don’t make an already difficult thing, more difficult. Mm-Hmm. So, like, sometimes we make it harder than it needs to be. Sometimes we’ve never seen it done. Um, but as far as like secrets, my whole thing is like, great thoughts turn into great actions.

Great actions turn into great results. So if you can get the thoughts right.

Both: Yeah.

Jon: And then actually act on ’em. Yeah. You’ll actually start to see some results. Mm-Hmm. And then it’s the stuff that you guys talk about all the time too, is having a community. 

Both: Mm-Hmm. Having 

Jon: like, it’s so we know, we know it matters and it’s, but it’s so easy to isolate.

And then the, and then the last thing would be culture’s not built for you to succeed. Like I, I said that to our friend Josh. Acts like Netflix doesn’t want you to do well at your goals. Mm-Hmm. That’s not their goal. Mm-Hmm. Like, Hulu doesn’t want you to write a book. Mm-Hmm. Like even dating apps don’t want you to get married.

’cause then you break the business model. Their goal isn’t, you find long lasting love after one date. Yeah. Their goal is you have a hundred meaningless hookups and never unsubscribe. 

Other: Yeah. So 

Jon: you have to at least admit culturally you’re up against some challenges. Mm-Hmm. Like net, like Netflix is really good.

Mm-Hmm. Like, Instagram is really good. Mm-Hmm. 

Michael: And they’re spending billions of dollars to get 

Jon: your attention. Yeah. And so I think, you know, that’s not to say you couldn’t have been distracted in the eighties or the nineties ’cause I was there. I, I remember being distracted without all those things. But you have to admit that like, that’s changed.

Yeah. Like, think, even think about it this way, like. Department stores now have buy here, pay here options. Mm-Hmm. When you check out at a department store, it’ll allow you to buy here, pay here a hundred dollars thing. So you go, why is credit, like, why is credit debt going up? Because what used to be buy here, pay here at car lots that you go as a bad neighborhood, it’s a different now every purchase you can finance into the future.

Mm-Hmm. And so, like, we teach our kids, like if your legs and your car works, never DoorDash, like you wouldn’t tip $8 at a Taco Bell. Mm-Hmm. Like, but we’ve now been taught Mm-Hmm. Like, no, I should do that. So you have to understand there’s this whole cultural machine pushing against, you know, the goals you want to do.

Like, and we’re at odds. Mm-Hmm. Like, I, my, my goals are different than what Instagram wants for me. Yeah. My goal, like my goals are different than what Netflix wants for me. Mm-Hmm. And so I think sometimes we forget that. Um, and we don’t draw boundaries. Yeah. 

Michael: What do you say to the people who wanna do what you do, which is speak.

Right. Create, you know, be a creator and they feel like they’ve got to really be active on social media Yeah. To do that. How do you balance all that? ’cause you’re active on social media. Yeah. But my sense is you have some boundaries around it. 

Jon: I think you pick your spots. So I always say like, the first thing is cornerstone content.

Like, you can’t get booked to speak without cornerstone content. 

Other: Hmm. 

Jon: You, if you don’t have something to say, then you know, like, you’re not even that interesting online. So I would say spend a lot of time developing your cornerstone content. And by 

Michael: that you mean what? 

Jon: Your point of view, what you’re gonna talk about.

I have nine books. So I have nine cornerstone content pieces, like, like signature 

Michael: speech or something. Signature 

Jon: speech signature. Like I’ve developed this. Um, so the one is like be really deliberate about the content and then I’d say like, pick your places. Like I don’t do a lot on Pinterest. It’s not one of my places.

Um, I don’t, I’m not on TikTok, it’s not my place, like great places for a lot of people, but it’s not my place. So I’m really deliberate about where are my places. Um, and also like recognizing where your people are. So like, I need to be more active in LinkedIn in part because when I talk to a corporate audience, I’m a corporate speaker.

That’s the platform they’re using. So the event planners are there. Yep. People follow me there when they see me speak at Alexis event. So awesome where like somebody else, if they’re saying, you know what, I’m trying to really develop this healthcare product for young, busy moms, I wouldn’t go, you gotta be all over LinkedIn.

Like LinkedIn. I would go, oh, then check out Instagram, check out Facebook, whatever. So I think you pick your places. Um, what’s that 

Michael: for you? 

Jon: For me? Is LinkedIn. LinkedIn? LinkedIn’s a big one. But you’re on Instagram too, right? Yeah, I’m on Instagram. Instagram’s another one. But even that, I’m, I’m kind of figuring out, okay, how do I wanna do it?

Like I re So an example of me doing that would be, I repost a lot of tweets on Instagram. ’cause guess what? I’m a better writer than I am a videographer. I will never out photo Jeremy Coward. He will never outright, he’ll never outright me. So my best content that goes viral usually is a screenshot of a tweet.

Now, a lot of social media experts would go, no, never do that on Instagram. Never. And I’m like, well, that it’s my greatest tool, so I’m just gonna bring my greatest tool into this format and tweak it to my. To my liking and then grow my audience that way. So I think that’s the other thing is you have to figure out what works for you, what doesn’t work for you.

And then, and, and then I would say like, don’t overpay. Like there’s so many kind of fly by night experts right now. Mm-Hmm. Oh my god. I would say like, don’t overpay. Um, build it slowly and then like build it organically. Like you can tell when people bought their way in and it doesn’t create what you want it to create.

It gives you a vanity number, but nobody really looks at that anymore. 

Michael: No, nobody cares. 

Megan: Yeah. This is a little personal, so you can answer it. Yeah, sure. Or not answer it. But what goal have you struggled with? The most. ’cause I think we all have like a thorny goal. I’ve had my version. Oh yeah, I know this one.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. So what, and then how did you deal with that? 

Jon: I would say, uh, building and running a systemized business. Oh. Like, that’s been like the biggest thorn in my flesh. Like, it’s so hard. It’s so hard. Like I, uh, and even now, like I mentioned Bill Hampton, bill and I are working together. I, he was, uh, my boss at Ramsey.

Brilliant guy. And I feel right now in my partnership with him that I am like an 800 pound person who’s hired a trainer, a physical trainer. Yeah. And it’s, it’s, it makes me very uncomfortable in the best ways. Yeah. Because he’ll go, why did you do this, this, and this? And I’ll go, ’cause I was afraid. And it was the easiest way to do it.

And like, I felt uncomfortable and I like, and he’s asking hard questions. Yeah. And I’ve had to open the fiefdom. I’ve had this little John Ako fiefdom. To a wise person with outside perspective to go, I think you can go to the next level, but in order to do that, you’re gonna have to do this, this, and this.

And I’ve hidden so easy that I wish it was hard for me to go. What’s a goal? I have a hundred percent. Yeah. Um, growing my business to the size I believe it can be with some of the things that I would say are systems, um, you know, the way staffing, culture, all the stuff that’s like, it’s not shiny. Like one of the soundtracks I say is excellence is boring.

Mm-Hmm. Like, it’s like winning is exciting. Mm-Hmm. But excellence is boring. It’s all the things, it’s all the follow ups, it’s all the thank, you know, it’s, it’s all the things that nobody sees, but that’s the stuff, like, that’s the stuff that matters. Mm-Hmm. And so, making time for that, valuing it. And surrounding yourself with people that can ask hard que mm-Hmm.

Like Bill is asking hard questions. Mm-hmm. And is go like in the, my business won’t look like it looks like right now, a year from now. Wow. 

Michael: That’s exciting. That’s amazing. Is there a goal, this is sort of the inverse of what you just asked. Is there a goal where you achieve something really big but you would’ve never achieved it without a goal?

Jon: I, yeah, I would say like 90%. Like I I, the joke I do, like, I have this joke where I go, why don’t people, you know, succeed? And I was like, and I’m always like, I can’t speak for them, but I don’t like doing difficult things because they’re difficult. Like they’re hard. Yeah. Like, yeah, like writing a, as easy as writing a book is not, writing a book is even easier.

As easy as going to the gym is not going is even easier. And I’ll jo I’ll say, have you ever nodded before? I could nod all day. So like, I am very, like, I, I heard a Swedish author, I wish I could remember his name. And he said, my brain and I are not friends. We are coworkers working on a project called Life and it is not going well.

So I, another line I’ll do is that you’re the most persuasive person you’ve ever met. No doubt. And I’ll say that to people and go, because every bad decision you made, first you talk yourself into it and they’re like, this is gonna go well. Yeah. This is gonna work out for us. And so, no, I, I mean writing books like I have to be, I.

Writing is very challenging for me. Like I have to sit down and really, like, I track the hours. I know I’m at 223 this year ’cause I write down each hour, like I track the hours I focus, like, so I need, if I shared all the tools it takes to keep me going in the right direction, like listeners would be like, that’s too much this guy, he needs to go to counseling.

I would say I am, that’s one of the tools. So I would say the majority of what I’ve accomplished has been because of goals. Like 

Michael: I, I, I have a theory and let’s see if this is true for you. And that is, I chronically underestimate. How long things are gonna take and what they’re gonna cost. But I actually think that’s a life hack.

Both: Yeah. 

Michael: Because I think if anything I got into that was meaningful, if I had really counted the cost, I would’ve never done it. 

Jon: Oh dear. 

Michael: So I, I, I stopped retting that and started embracing it. 

Jon: I love, that’s one of the many reasons I love your stuff. That’s a hundred percent true. If somebody told me, oh, and somebody did tell me this.

I remember I was at an event, I shared the stage with John Maxwell, which is awesome. And then we did a book signing line together, my table and his tables next to me, and there were 500 people at his table. No one came to my table. And like people had like wheelbarrows full of his product to buy, and they’d get outta line for a second, go love your blog.

Like not in a buy your stuff way, but I’m, I’m gonna be over. And then they’d get back in line and a dude came up to me, walked from behind. He patted me on the back and goes, 10 years buddy. 10 years. And he meant it, his encouragement, but like, I didn’t wanna say. Decade, that’s all it’s gonna take. Decade. So if somebody told me at the beginning, Hey, all you have to do is like consistently write books, consistently speak for like 16, 17, 18 years.

Like I graduated college in 98, so I’ve been a professional writer for 26 years. I’m so glad nobody told me that at the beginning. Oh yeah. Like, and so I do, I think I a hundred percent agree with that. But on the flip side, for me, somebody asked about that, they’re like, you’ve worked really hard and I genuine, this sounds so cheesy.

I genuinely believe that when you’re in your calling it doesn’t, it’s not as hard to you in the moment. Yeah. Like true. I don’t look back on things that I did like. Man. I went to Effingham, Illinois and I did a three hour event and it was January and it was cold and there weren’t a lot of people there.

And the guy forgot the clicker. So like when I got there, he goes, left the clicker at home, just say next. And I was like, for three hours, that’s, I’m gonna have to say next 187 slides. Like how far is home? Like is home close? Can we go get the clicker? But even in that moment, I don’t look back on that and go, oh, that was so hard.

I go like. No, that was the, like even in that moment, I always say like, find something you love that even with the delayed flight, you’re smiling. Nobody I know is like, man, yeah, I love a canceled flight. Nobody loves that. But even that, I’m like, but did I get to be on stage for 45 minutes and do what I feel like I’m best at and really impact a lot Like that was worth it.

Mm-Hmm. Like, so if you have the, the blessing of bumping into that, like that’s what you hold onto and it. It doesn’t like, it doesn’t feel as hard as you might think. Hmm. So if you’re 

Megan: talking to somebody who keeps setting goals Mm-Hmm. They’re not achieving them, or maybe they’re 50 50 

Jon: mm-Hmm. 

Megan: What would you say?

Because I think that’s a lot of us. 

Jon: Well, I would say I would, I would try to diagnose what the problem is. Mm-Hmm. Like, is it an overestimation? Mm-Hmm. So, like I always say, you know, um, like your calendar tells the truth. Mm-Hmm. So a lot of times your, your desire is divorced from your calendar. Yeah. And, and you’re due.

So true. And so I’ll meet people that’ll go, I wanna do these goals. And I’ll say, well, how much time would they cost a week? And they’ll say, about 20 hours. And they’ll say, well, how many hours of free time do you have in your week right now? And they go, free time, I’m really busy. Zero mm-Hmm. And I go, well, you have 20 hours of goals, zero hour space.

You’re doomed before you started predictable. 

Other: Mm-Hmm. 

Jon: And so like, is it a time issue? Like, is it overestimation? Mm-Hmm. Do they really want to do it? Like it’s okay to say you don’t want to do, it’s okay to retire a goal like I retire goals all 

Other: the time. Mm-Hmm 

Jon: mm-Hmm. Like one of the phrases I say is Septe.

September you is smarter than January you, so you, that is only knew one, like you had limited information in January. If you get to September, you’re like, this is not the thing. Don’t slug it out with yourself to like go ahead and admit like, this isn’t, I’ve grown, I’ve changed. This isn’t a desire anymore.

Yeah. And so like, I like to audition goals versus come up with an annual goal. Ooh, I like this. Thanks. Because I think people in January for you to come up with a New Year’s resolution as a goal, which is probably our most popular form of goals without ever testing it, is like speed dating somebody. You marry the, that night like, and you’d never do that.

Yeah. Like and so only on tv. Only on tv. And so I go, well, can we, can we audition it for like a week? Yeah. Can we audition it for a month and then in February decide, you know what, we’re doubling down. We’re gonna do February two, we’re gonna do March. So I like kind of doing them with an iteration versus a Yeah.

I have to go from never doing it to now I’m all in. 

Both: Mm-Hmm. Um, so I think that’s 

Jon: part of it. I think sometimes they don’t have community to encourage them. Yeah. I talked to a guy the other day. He said, running sucks, but the people are awesome. Yeah, you wouldn’t say so true. Yeah. I love running. It’s like, man, I love how I feel after.

Yeah. I love, I mean, that’s the other thing is like I also fortify goals with soundtracks, so one of my soundtracks for difficult goals is I’ll feel awesome after. I feel awesome after, if I, can you 

Michael: explain what you mean by soundtracks? ’cause I think people, oh yeah, sorry. Automatically go to music. But you wrote a whole book on it.

I, so 

Jon: they’re buying it right now. Um, just ordering as they listen to this. I wrote a book called Soundtracks about mindset, and the, the theory was a soundtrack is just a repetitive thought. Mm-Hmm. Um, and the key to to mindset is you retire your broken soundtracks, you replace ’em with new ones, and you repeat those new ones.

So often they become as automatic as the old ones. Mm-Hmm. Love that. So for me, I use like, and, and it works and it’s probably gonna end up being my bestselling book because it’s a really easy handle and everybody has soundtracks. Yeah. So one of our team 

Megan: loves that book. Oh, I appreciate that. 

Jon: Yeah. So one of my soundtracks if for something I don’t want to do is I’ll feel awesome after.

Mm. 

Megan: So 

Jon: I know, like we live in Nashville, the joke I always do is it’s too cold in the winter to run and the spring is too rainy and the summer’s too hot and the fall is too dark. Like there’s not a good Yeah. And so what I tell myself, I don’t, if I think about the beginning, I’ll never do it. If I imagine, oh, it’s gonna feel cold when I go outside, I’m gonna have to find gloves.

Mm-Hmm. It’s gonna like, it’s gonna be windy. Like, ugh. If I think about the beginning, I’ll never do it. So I tell myself I’ll feel awesome after. I feel awesome after, like, and I, I Dr I think about the beginning in black and white. I dream about the end in Technicolor. Mm-Hmm. So I go, oh man, it’s gonna feel great in that shower.

It’s gonna feel great crossing that number off on Strava. It’s gonna feel great coming down that last hill. And I’ll say, I’ll feel awesome after. And now I’ve got a soundtrack Mm-Hmm. That’s helping nudge me. So a lot of times they, they’ve never dealt with the mindset side of it. Yeah. 

Both: Um, 

Jon: and so, yeah, I think there’s just a, and then some of it’s perfectionism, some of it’s procrastination.

Um, some of it’s imposter syndrome. Mm-Hmm. And so I think there’s a lot of things and they all come down to, you know, fear. Just like a general sense of fear. Mm-Hmm. That a lot of people, that sticks, a lot of people. ’cause the stuff we do, like the joke I sometimes do is like. They’ve never invented a 12th ab, like men’s health could publish one issue if people just did what it said.

Right? Like there’s never like issue 500. It’s not like, hold up, we found a different type of AB exercise. No one’s ever done. This one works. The previous 499 issues are bad. This is the one, like, we have enough info. Yeah. Like building a business. There’s a lot of things that aren’t mysterious, but they take consistency.

Mm-Hmm. And they take boring stuff. Yeah. And they take, and so it’s like, how do you fall in love with those little pieces of it? Yeah. And I, you know, for me it’s exciting to get a book in the mail that you’ve written. 

Other: Mm-Hmm. 

Jon: It’s like half an hour, like it’s gonna take you a year. Yeah. So like, you better find other things to move you along than just the half an hour of holding the book.

Mm-Hmm. Because that’s, you know, money’s the same way. Yeah. Like the thrill of that’s pretty short. Mm-Hmm. Like Yep. You better enjoy the conversations you’re having. Mm-Hmm. You know, on a Thursday. Yeah. Versus just someday this thing goes viral and we, you know, we get massive sponsors, whatever. Yeah. 

Michael: Do you think, um, when you’re goal focused, and I struggle with this, to be honest, is that I’m so always in the future that it’s sometimes hard for me to be in the present.

Jon: Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, for me, I’ll think of about things like, how do I put my feet down? Like how do I root to this moment? Mm-Hmm. Like, I’ll stop and kinda like, okay, what moment am I in right now? Um. And, and I’ll, I’ll write down notes during the day. Like, you know, like, wow, that was, I’ll start keeping track of things like small things.

Mm-Hmm. That I’m just like, like I’ll probably put in, I, I don’t know if I’d call it a gratitude journal. I keep, I, I come up with something called a best list moment. And, and all it takes is a goal and like, I gotta really good parking spot today, so I’m gonna write that down in that. ’cause that was a small, like, yeah.

Now I’m not waiting for home run moments. Now I’m like, man, I found one. ’cause they’re starting to do two hour only everywhere. And so like I found I had to go a couple blocks over where there’s no two hours. It’s just like. Park as long as you want. And I was like, Hey. And there’s one available. And so like I’ll write that small thing down in like, in the day, but where my wife will kind of push back on me on that is when it’s a Monday and I go, are we going out to dinner with friends on Wednesday?

And she’ll go, we’ll forget out. We’ll figure it out Wednesday. And I’m like, oh, I gotta know. I gotta know. And that’s where I’m, I’m moving into anxiety and I’m living in a future versus like, what are we doing today? Yeah. So, yeah, I, I would say I’m always trying to re-root myself to the moment I’m in. It’s not, it’s not automatic for me, 

Michael: you know, an interesting practice that I’ve begun, uh, especially with my grandkids.

Like I try to get better at saying no. And now I’m in a season where I’m trying to get better at saying yes to the right things. Mm-Hmm. So it’s kinda like you were talking about, you know, with your girls when you’re, uh, being asked to do something in the moment and you just decide to say yes, you know, whatever the plans are, they just go away.

Yeah. And I’m trying to do the same thing with my, my grand kids, and it’s a really great strategy for being present. 

Jon: Yeah. And it’s, I would say it’s like anything else, you can practice it. Yeah. I, I always tell people, like, when people say to me, well, I’m John, I’m not detailed. I’ll go forever. Like, you’re 38.

You don’t, you might live 50 more years. That’s already been decided. Like, you can’t learn how to be more detailed or they’ll go, I’m not good with numbers. Right. Like, for the rest of your life. And so for me, knowing I’m not, I’m, I’m not easily present, just goes, can I make that a goal? Yeah. Like what would it look like?

Okay. And try things like test it. Like, okay, I’m not gonna have, you know. I’m not gonna have a calendar this week on vacation. Okay. Well, let me see how that feels. Or I’m not gonna wear my watch. Like I’m a big test it with a small action guy. So like one of the ones I talked about in the book, I wanted to be closer, connected to people.

Um, ’cause I was getting isolated, like my introversion moved into more of isolation. So I decided I wanna encourage people. And so I came up with a list of 30 people and for 30 days in a row, I texted one of them every morning an encouragement out of the blue. And I was like, Hey, just wanted to know, like, every time I think of creativity, like Jeremy Coward, we mentioned that.

Yeah. Anytime I think of the word creativity, like you’re who you’re, who comes to mind. Like it wasn’t, and I didn’t make it hard. I didn’t write ’em along letters, like, and 90% of them wrote back and said, you don’t know how much I needed that today. Wow. And so I took what was fuzzy, be a better friend. You can’t execute against that.

And made it kind of tactical and practical. Mm-Hmm. And then I did it. And then at the end of the 30 days, I felt more connected to people. 

Both: Hmm. And 

Jon: so anytime, like, so if I said to myself, I wanna be more present. I would probably find four or five actions that I could try in small ways. Um, and instead of doing the extreme and going, I gotta do yoga, I gotta like, I gotta go all, I gotta do a silent retreat for three months to figure this out.

I would go on a Tuesday, what can I do to be a little more present? Lemme try that seven days in a row, 30 days in a row, see if it worked and if it’s something I want to add to the toolkit that keeps me moving in the direction I wanna go. 

Megan: Mm-hmm. That’s fantastic. Very 

Jon: cool. 

 

Megan: Well, I know we’re almost out of time.

Yeah. And almost to our, um, questions that we get to ask every guest. Great. However, selfishly, I want to ask you one more question about goals. ’cause it’s a question we get asked a lot, and that is, as a parent, so you’re kind of like almost at the emp empty nest phase. Yeah. Like, you’re not quite there, but you’re, you’re getting close.

What would you say to parents about teaching their kids how to set goals? Oh yeah. And what should they not do? What should they do? Like Great question. Give us your best advice. Great, 

Jon: great question. We actually have a book, my daughters and I wrote a book called How Teens Win. Mm. That comes out in a couple months that we we’re excited.

That’s so exciting. What is the title again? How Teens Win? 

Michael: I just want you say a second 

Jon: time. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for saying, um, available everywhere. And they read the audio book. We did. What happened with soundtracks was, it was the first time I’d ever had a book come out where parents asked for a teenage version.

Yeah, like the first six books, no one ever asked for a teenage version to finish or do over, and a book about mindset. Um, parents came outta the woodwork and like my kid is struggling with mindset. Like, could you, could you do a teenage version? And I knew if I wrote it, it would be like an old person trying to sell young, like, hello fellow youths.

Like, wow, don’t increase the js. I got so much Riz, I’m a rizzley bear. Like it would be so whack. And then I said, whack is whack. So, but I had two teenage daughters and they helped me write the book and we wrote this book called Your New Playlist, and now it’s being taught in schools across the country.

That’s awesome. My hope is that we’ll teach kids mindset in the future in the same way we teach ’em finances. 20, 30 years ago we gave, we didn’t teach kids anything enough money. No. And said, here’s a credit card, try not to buy a jet ski. And then they would like detonate their lives. And so hopefully we’ll teach ’em mindset.

But that led to a second book, how Teens win. So I would say a couple things. One thing we’ve seen that works well with. Um, conversations like this Mm-Hmm. Is do it via audio. So, so many parents have come up to us and said, I got the print book of, of your new playlist, but the audio book, that’s your teenagers reading it.

Teens speaking to teens was way more helpful because we could listen to a chapter Yeah. In a carpool. And I could say, what do you think about that? Do you agree? Yeah. Because like, it’s challenging for a parent to go, here’s a book, right? I want you to read during the summer. That’s not, you know, like, what teenager’s, like, uh, you got any more books for me to read?

I’d love to. So one, I would say like, play to that strength of audio. Mm-Hmm. Connection time. Mm-Hmm. Second thing is, don’t, um, suffocate a passion. There’s a real temptation as a parent where a kid expresses a little bit of passion and you go, she’s an artist. I knew she was an artist, and every birthday present, every gift, every class.

And you suffocate this passion. That the kid had and they just wanted to try five things. Yeah. And we have specialization culture where we make kids specialize really early. Mm. And like, it’s wild to me that like a 9-year-old can feel it’s too late to try something new because they didn’t start playing flag football and when they were two.

Wow. And my, my daughter felt that when she joined Swim, she joined Swim at nine. She saw that there were five year olds there and she said, I’m so far behind, I’ll never catch up. Hmm. So the other thing I, the other same thing I’d say around kids is don’t suck the joy out of it. Um, in performance. So I just example, I just recently ran the National Half Marathon with my youngest daughter McCree.

And people are like, what was your time goal? What was your time goal? I said, we didn’t have one. I had two goals that at the end of the race she didn’t hate running and she didn’t hate me. Mm. 

Other: Love that. Because I knew as 

Jon: a parent, yeah, I’d be tempted. We gotta train, we gotta, and I would. Remove all the joy and she would never want to run again.

And I would’ve, so wise, and then the last thing is give them the time to develop that you needed to develop. Like a friend of mine said to me, he goes, man, my 16-year-old just a knucklehead. Like I can’t, can’t get ’em up on time for it. All this stuff. And, and I said, well, how long, like what age were you when you kind of got disciplined and consistent?

He said about 32. He said, well, no, no offense to you. Maybe your amazing parenting will cut two years off of that, but that just still means he has 14 years more. Right. And so I think the, where parents like us get it twisted is. We find something that’s true and amazing about life in our mid thirties, early forties, and we don’t want our kids to have to take as long to learn it.

Yeah. Oh, so true. And we put a pressure on them, and I did it the other day. That’s why it’s fresh in my mind. We have a drawer where we keep the car keys. Mm-Hmm. And one of my kids, um, couldn’t find their car keys. And I was like, if you just put it in the drawer. And my wife was there and she was like, it took you 10 years, John to trust that drawer.

And I was like, right. I don’t want her to have to pay the decade cost. Yeah. Just learn the drawer. Learn from my mistake. Yeah. And so recognizing that temptation to go, they’re gonna get some of their own bruises. Mm-Hmm. They’re gonna get some of their own lessons. And that’s part of, if you wanna feel like you’re outta control, have a kid like, because you can control to a certain, and I used to not think I was a control freak.

I used to say I’m just a fan of certainty. And then like, and then now, like once you have teenagers, yeah. I can’t control what type, like, who, like if people like them. I can’t control if they go to the prom, I can’t control college. Who do they go with? Who they go with. Yeah. There’s so many. So you have to be really openhanded with children.

Totally. And I think that’s the bravery part of it. I mean like in the stage you’re in, like you can’t control if they have kids or if they live near you or if they do some job that takes them to Europe for 10 year. Like there’s so many things. So I think like I think that’s part of it is like encourage them, support them.

When I say to kids, like when I meet teenagers, I said this the other day to a teenager, he is 18 and he’s starting to read more books, like kind of goal books. And I’ve been giving him some advice and I was like, dude, treat your parents like venture capitalists. If you show up with plans they will throw so much money at it.

I said, if you go to them, mom and dad, I know I’m gonna school and I wanna join a gym. ’cause Jim like being at the gym is part of my mental health. And they’re like, they’ll be like, great, we’ll buy you a gym membership. And like when I saw him and his parents last. He said, yeah, I’m crushing an audible.

I’m listening to so many books while I do lawn care. And his dad was like, yeah, I’ll buy any book you want. Like the dad was like, of course. Yeah. Right. So I try to tell kids. The parents’ job. Like if you express a passion, we’ll f like, we’re so excited. 

Other: Mm-Hmm. 

Jon: We’ll fund that, we’ll lift that up. We’ll surround you and everyone, you know.

And so, but I was trying to reframe for him, like treat him like venture capitalist. If you showed up with paperwork, like my daughter, when she wanted to sign up for, um, TikTok came with a 10 pa a 10 slide PowerPoint and, and on her own, she was just like, love it. She was like, look, here’s the accounts I wanna follow.

Here’s the the time measurements I wanna set. And we’re like, oh my gosh. Like she’s really, like, we’re all in. So like, I love to encourage teenagers, like treat ’em like venture capitalists. Yeah. They wanna they wanna be angel investors in your success if you’ll let them. Mm-Hmm. So bring it to them and then, and they’re not, they’re only, they’re only trying to make you successful.

Like, that’s their only, that’s so true. Um, and so I, I, I kind of geek out about helping, helping both parents and teenagers that way. 

Michael: I could tell your kids that and kind of coach ’em to come to you with a PowerPoint slide deck. Great. 

Megan: Well, you used to make us do that. We didn’t have PowerPoint back then, but you used to have us do that very thing.

You know, like you don’t go ask for money unless you’re coming with a proposal. I wanna know you’re all in. Yeah. Like, I don’t want it to be casual. 

Jon: I wanna know you’ve got skin in the game and you’re like, it really matters to you. 

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so we do a lightning round at the end. Yeah, sure. And we’ve got some questions to ask you.

So first of all, what’s your biggest obstacle for obstacle for getting the double win in this season of your life? 

Jon: Um, I would say vulnerability. I said the business stuff. Like opening up with I think you’re so vulnerable. Yeah. But like, o there’s a full

Michael: vulnerability.

Jon: This whole I, this whole, this whole hour has been a lie.

Um, no. Like opening up to invite otherwise people to ask me hard questions that I then respond to. Mm. So that’s what I mean by vulnerability, 

Megan: especially in areas where, you know, you’ve gotta grow. 

Jon: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred And it’s gonna take me past my current kind of comfort zone. Yeah. Makes sense. Well often 

Michael: say the shortest distance between where you are and where you wanna get is the truth.

Jon: Yeah. 

Michael: And the faster you can get to that. 

Jon: Yeah. 

Michael: You know, the faster you can make progress. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Okay, second question. How do you personally know you’ve got the double win? 

Megan: Um, not that it’s ever perfect by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Because it’s just not, you know, 

Jon: I know it when my, like my, when my wife feels supported and loved Mm-Hmm.

Where my kids feel connected when they know they can interrupt me. Like there’s been seasons where like I now practice being interruptible for a small group of people, not everybody, but like that they can come into the office and not have to apologize when they come in. Like, yeah. You just go like, Hey, that’s a good, so like, for me, that’s one of the, like, I’m getting the double win.

Megan: That’s fantastic. You know, it’s interesting as we’ve asked this question now to a lot of people Mm-Hmm. The two answers we get are either my spouse is good 

Michael: Yeah. 

Megan: Or I feel peace. Yeah. And I think they’re a version of the same thing. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s so interesting. 

Michael: Is there a, this is the last question.

Is there a routine or a ritual that is really kind of cornerstone that helps you do what you do? 

Jon: Yeah, I, uh, I am a timer fanatic. Like, I, I can’t fo it’s hard for me to focus. So since last July, so a year now, I’ve tracked, um, like effort hours, like where I’m dialed in on something that matters and I’m paying attention and I’ve tracked him in a notebook and like, and I try to beat last month’s total.

And I’m so like setting a timer on my iPhone. 

Michael: By the way, you are Enneagram three if there’s any doubt. Okay, 

Jon: good. I’m, I’ve never thought of that after. You’ll be like, he is crazy, but like for me. Like that, using a timer to go, today I’m gonna do this. And then the other thing I’d say related to that is being deliberate about my time the day before, like Mm-Hmm.

Knowing tomorrow. Okay. Like, so like today, I’ll review tomorrow and I’ll go and I do that every day and I do it all week. Like I knew on Monday, oh, I got a meeting with guys on 7:00 AM Friday and I’ve got some other stuff. I’m not gonna have time for a run. I need to run at five 15 mm-Hmm. And knowing that gives me such peace.

Mm-Hmm. Like knowing, I don’t like to wake up without a plan. Yeah. Where things are shapeless. Like I have a harder time on a shapeless Saturday than I do on a busy Friday. Mm-Hmm. And again, working on it, but so knowing, being deliberate about my hours the day before, um, the, and the, the soundtrack I use for that is like, night me, um, is a decider morning.

Me is a doer. I. Like night me is the decider. Morning means a doer morning. Me will wake up and if it’s, there’s a list, let’s go like, heads down go. If it wakes up and it’s blank morning, me is like, yeah, maybe Instagram, 

Both: huh? Like, 

Jon: wanna scroll a little 

Both: bit? Like 

Jon: maybe we’re like, and night me is very good at going or at late afternoon.

Me is very good at going, here’s the three things we’re doing tomorrow, we’re gonna take care of this. Like, and it, there’s just less stress If I wake up on a Monday at 8:00 AM and I don’t know what I’m doing. Yeah. Now I’ve got the stress of the week and it feels like it’s breathing on me. If I do that Friday without the Monday breathing on me completely different.

Michael: Wow. 

Jon: So true. 

Michael: Well, the thing I’m wondering is why don’t we get together more? 

Both: I know, I know, man. I just, I love this. I know. We do a lot of the same things. I know. Yeah. This is so powerful. 

Michael: Well, if people wanna find you Mm-Hmm. Where do they find you? Online? 

Jon: Yeah. Uh, it’s just john a.com. J-O-N-A-C-U ff.com. I have a podcast called, all It Takes is a goal.

Um, and all it takes is a goal and soundtracks are available everywhere. Books are sold. 

Michael: Man. Well, if you’ve enjoyed this hour listening to John, you’ll enjoy his writing. So get his books. Uh, all It Takes is a goal. The soundtracks book, all the other books that you’ve written. Yeah, I appreciate that. But that’d be a great place to start.

Yeah. Yeah. So thanks for stepping in today. Yeah, 

Jon: thanks for having 

Michael: me. 

Megan: Thanks for being here. Fun of course. Fun 

Camera B Acuff Intro: Meg, what’d you think of that interview? 

I loved it so much and you know.

I’m just gonna be like totally honest. I was a little worried given all of John’s work on goal achievement. I thought, what if he says something that is like in conflict with the philosophy of goal achievement. I thought about that too. Yeah. That, that we teach and in fact it was the opposite. It was so complimentary.

Of course, he has his own unique perspective, own unique story of kind of how he came to goals. Um. And so I, I feel like I can easily, wholeheartedly recommend him and his work. I mean, we’ve known him for a long time, but I, I just found that he’s very relatable. I, I love it when people share their struggles.

Me too. 

It’s funny, it’s like, it’s hard to do that yourself, especially in a public setting, but it endears people to you and it makes, it made me feel like, oh. This is possible for me too. You know, like, I mean that may sound funny to say since we talk so much about goals, but we all struggle with certain aspects of goal achievement, of pursuing the double win.

And just to hear that other people who are very accomplished also struggle. I dunno. It just made me feel good. You know, I, 

I think another takeaway for me was, it’s easy to think of a guy like John, who’s very successful, incredible public speaker, that he’s kind of an overnight success. And maybe some of you haven’t heard of him before.

Now all of a sudden you do. But I think he made it clear. Mm-Hmm. But this has been more than two decades in the making. 

Yeah. And 

he’s put in his 10,000 hours. 

Yeah. You 

know, he’s done all this stuff, including going to small towns and speaking. Having to do all the things you have to do when you’re, you know, just starting out.

And I, and I love that because it’s easy to forget that, and it’s easy if you’re listening to this, to compare where you are to where John is and say, oh my gosh, you know, I guess I just must not be that good. No, you just need more reps in the gym. 

Yeah. Well, I loved his idea about contentment and ambition.

Oh, 

that was 

being 

incredible. 

Two things that can live in tension with each other in a really healthy way that you don’t have to choose one or the other. 

I love that too. And I think that at, at least for me, when I hear things like that where things seem like they’re in conflict, think Andy Stanley says it this way, these aren’t things to resolve. There are things to hold intention. 

Yeah. It’s kind of like the tension actually keeps them both in their proper place. So on the one hand, contentment doesn’t become complacency, and on the other hand, ambition doesn’t become drivenness or narcissism.

And I think that is is a great way to frame that whole idea. 

Yep. Hope you guys enjoyed this show with John, and we look forward to seeing you again next week where we’ll have another amazing conversation with a significant thought leader.