14. KEN COLEMAN: Find The Work You’re Wired To Do

Episode Transcript

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Ken Coleman: Your greatness lies within your uniqueness. It’s not the other way around. We all want great, but very few people are willing to do what it takes to be great. And I think what it takes to be great is to be so completely self-aware of your unique wiring.​

Megan Hyatt Miller: we have a fantastic conversation with Ken Coleman that I think you’re gonna love. 

Michael Hyatt: Ken’s been a long time friend. I can’t remember where I met him. I think he was working for John Maxwell maybe 20 years ago.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow. 

Michael Hyatt: When I first met him, and we’ve kept up through the years. He had to have 

Megan Hyatt Miller: been like in high school then. 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. No kidding. Yeah. Well, I was a little bit younger too, but he’s often referred to as America’s career coach who loves helping people find the work. They’re wired to do. He’s the host of the nationally syndicated radio show, the Ken Coleman Show.

Um, I’ve been a guest on it a couple of times. He’s the author of several excellent books, including from Paycheck to Purpose, great title, the Proximity Principle, which I’ve given to a lot of people and his most recent Find the Work You’re Wired to Do. Now, he’s the creator of the Get Clear Career Assessment, which we talk about in this interview, which helps people discover their talent, passion, and mission.

So they can put it to work in their work. And it’s literally helped hundreds of thousands identify what they do best, the work they love doing, and the results that matter deeply to them. So the last 10 years he served at Ramsey Solutions. Most of you know Dave Ramsey. He’s a husband, a father with three kids.

And here’s our conversation. Enjoy.

Ken, welcome to the show. 

Ken Coleman: Glad to be with you guys. This is so fun. It’s so fun. I love the 

Michael Hyatt: studios. Thank you.

You. Yeah, it’s great. We love having you here. And you live and work in Franklin. That’s right. I live two 

Ken Coleman: miles probably from right where we sit. Amazing. It’s so amazing. Yeah. Love this town. Greatest small town in America. Quick plug. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah, but, but please don’t move here because everyone else already is. 

Michael Hyatt: I totally endorse that statement.

The 

Megan Hyatt Miller: traffic is a bit of a challenge. 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. As we said in the intro, uh, Ken has a new book called Find the Work You’re Wired to Do. Why did you write a book like this? What was sort of the, uh, inciting event that led to you writing this? Yeah, I know you’ve created an assessment. Yeah, we’re gonna talk 

Ken Coleman: about it.

Yeah. Well, you know, over time coaching people on the air, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m the, uh, work guy at Ramsey Solutions, so Dave Ramsey gave me this opportunity and, and I’m driven by one thing. Mm. And that’s to help people discover. The work that they’re wired to do. Now, I didn’t say it that initially, but it, it came from a drive of seeing some older men in my life as I was growing up, uh, have a type of a fall Mm-Hmm.

And then they couldn’t get back on the track. Mm-Hmm. And I, and I remember that was the very first seed of all of this. I also come from a pastor’s family, so I’ve watched my mom and dad, the small church, so they weren’t in it for the glitz and the glamor. It was hard serving, you know, less than a hundred people.

So I also grew up. In an environment where I saw my mom and dad just love on people. So those were two catalytic moments that, uh, early on when I figured out, okay, I want to go into broadcasting, but what kind of broadcasting? And, and I tried sports and, and I love politics, but I didn’t wanna do either one of those things because I wasn’t motivated.

And we’ll talk about it a lot about that. I wasn’t motivated by the entertainment. Or the informative result of those two types of media. And, and of course I know you Michael, from a long time ago. I remember the first time I was in a meeting with Mike Hyatt and was like, that’s Mike Hyatt, Thomas Nelson.

And, and I worked with John Maxwell and I was a whipper snapper, probably 28. So just to be in that room big publishing, you know, it was kind of like the, everybody walks in, you know, and, and, uh, and so I was always around, you know, the John Maxwells and the Dave Ramseys, who I knew before I worked with them, and I had this desire to go into that space.

I was like, I love helping people in this space, helping people see their potential, whether it be their financial potential that Dave does or, or John with leadership potential. Mm-Hmm. And, and you’ve modeled this too, just your professional potential, so. I started doing that for Ramsey Solutions, and Dave just threw me to the wolves.

I’m not kidding. He got me a serious XM show as only Dave Ramsey can do, and he just went, start taking calls. I mean, true story pressure. Most people don’t know that. And, and to be completely honest with you, I wasn’t very good at it. 

Cross: Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: Because I’d never had to coach somebody in eight minutes. That’s, that’s hard.

Cross: Yeah. Ooh. 

Ken Coleman: And there’s an art form to that. So as I developed over time, people calling in who weren’t happy at work and they weren’t happy with where they were professionally, and you know, that begins to seep into your personal life. Mm-Hmm. That’s, it began to just through the process of digging, come up with this idea of everybody’s kind of got these three wires.

Yeah. Things you’re good at. Things you love to do and results that motivate you. 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: Like, I don’t care where you’re from. Yeah. Religion, race, creed, doesn’t matter. Everybody’s hardwired. Yeah. To want to make a difference. 

Michael Hyatt: You know, you’ve, you’ve figured out something here that’s really, I think, and it shows up in your assessment that’s really elegant.

It’s a simple framework. Yeah. And I know that it’s, it’s super easy in this space to gunk up the frameworks Yeah. And make ’em so complex, right. That nobody can understand ’em. Yeah. But you know, when I saw my results here, and in fact your husband Megan, when I shot him over to you, he saw ’em first. ’cause I did a text between the three of us and he said, this sounds exactly right.

Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, self-awareness is a superpower. Mm-Hmm. Yes. You know this, I mean, you’ve helped so many people, both of you, to this day. Everything you guys do is really about self-awareness. Mm-hmm. I mean, if we really boil down professional growth or personal growth Mm-Hmm.

It can only happen. In an environment of self-awareness 

Megan Hyatt Miller: that’s right. 

Ken Coleman: Outside of you being aware, strengths, weaknesses, where I’m squeezed, where I get the juice, you know, uh, you can’t truly grow. I think Maxwell said it once, in order to grow yourself, you gotta know yourself. It feels like something he said.

That sounds like something, you said something. He may not have said it. Maybe I just gave it to you. But, but, but that’s the idea here. And so we came up with this methodology. Through just the osmosis of coaching people. ’cause I, I would just dig, I’d start with what are you, what are you good at doing?

Mm-Hmm. Because when we figure out, we start with talent by the way. Because when we can, when we can be aware of what we’re good at, we now aware of our tools. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: You gotta be aware of your tools. Uh, you know, I’m not a big tool guy, but I know that I’d rather have a. Power saw versus the old school hand saw.

Yeah. Why? Efficiency and excellence. Better cut, quicker. Cut. And so talent is where we start when we try to see our future. You’ve already been given these talents, so the clues start there. Mm-Hmm. Well I’m good at this. Mm-Hmm. Whether they be soft skills or hard skills. And then we go into, okay, what do I love to do?

Uh, because when we, when we see where the enjoyment is,

Cross: Mm-Hmm.

Ken Coleman: Now we start to connect it to a problem.

Cross: Yeah. And 

Ken Coleman: then that third wire is what we call mission, which is results that matter to us. Yeah. Again. Now we’re starting to see what gets us outta bed in the morning. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Well, I think this is the thing that’s the most distinctive about this assessment is this idea of what gets us outta bed every morning.

Yep. What results do we care the most about? Yeah. Because a lot of assessments talk about, you know, kind of how you’re naturally wired in terms of what you’re good at. Yeah. And, uh, what you love to do. Yeah. But for all of us, whether we own a business or we’re working for somebody else who has a business Yeah.

Or in a nonprofit context, we’re all hired to deliver some kind of results. That’s right. And you could be really good at something That’s right. That you actually don’t care. Couldn’t care about the results. You know? And I think we’ve all been there at various times in our lives. So I’d love for you to talk just a little bit more about why you included that Yeah.

And how it kind of works within your framework. Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: So, uh. Just to reframe. Talent is what you do best. Passion is the kind of work you enjoy. And then mission results that motivate you. So I started doing all this research on psychology. I started reading everything I get my hands on. Hmm. And we know from all the psychology studies, there’s basically six forms of what they call intrinsic motivation.

Oh, all right. Fancy word. I didn’t know this. I didn’t know this either. Yeah. So this is fun. There’s extrinsic motivation. Sure. And intrinsic fun little lesson for our leaders out there. You’ll get something from this as well. Extrinsic motivation and I’m gonna use parenting ’cause I have three teenagers right now, so I also have teenagers.

So you’re gonna love, I’m just thinking about my kids. When you, do you have boys by chance? I do. Okay. I’m gonna pick on boys because I’m a man. Alright. Yeah. So I have two boys and a and a girl and boys are inherently sloppy slops. Absolutely. Well, true fact. That’s a fact. And so my boys. Share a bathroom.

They have their own rooms, but throughout their existence, I’ve walked up at some point and put a hazmat suit on right in order to function without catching some sort of communicable disease because it’s squalor. And I would get upset with the boys and I would say something like. If you don’t clean this bathroom or you don’t clean your room, you’re not going to do X or so.

You’re not gonna go out with your friends or you can’t have your friend over. And what would they say? Uh, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: okay, I’ll do it, but beg, 

Ken Coleman: but with it. Yeah. So, okay, so they did it, but did they do it because they wanted to norin motivation because they had to. That’s extrinsic. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: It’s kind of like making ’em shower a hundred percent.

You know, because you, same deal. I’m about to drive some boys to the Yes. University of Tennessee football camp on Sunday. And the good news is they’re old enough that most of them have girlfriends. Right. Which gets to your next point that 

Ken Coleman: fixes it. And so we get to point of intrinsic motivation is I take a shower because I want to, because I don’t want my girlfriend to think that I stink.

Megan Hyatt Miller: And all God’s people said, amen. I’ve never been happier for a girlfriend in my life. 

Ken Coleman: Yeah. It’s the person that eats really clean. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: Because there’s a, there’s an in, there is a intrinsic desire to be healthy. Yeah. So, so I studied this and so the six missional results. In the assessment, you’ll get one primary, and I’m looking at Mike’s right here.

And so what I did was, is I used that research and I took what research said were the six drivers of true motivation, and I just reworded ’em and I went, I think that you can take those six intrinsic motivators and tie ’em to work, and so far it’s worked. And so that’s the science. It’s not me. It’s just I went to psychology 1 0 1 and here’s what I know about work.

All work creates a result. 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah, 

Ken Coleman: but until you align. The love of the task. And so I can say all three of us. Are you a three Enneagram? Three I’m a four. You’re with a three wings. You’re a three. So we’ve got three. I’m a ridiculous, probably unhealthy three at times. And thank God for therapy. Yes, yes. Amen.

Amen. It’s, I’m seriously a big fan. Uh, so all three of us enjoy performing Mm-Hmm. On some level. Mm-Hmm. Okay. And so you have to be able to understand that. So I look at influence everything that Michael Hyatt does. That truly motivates him. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: Has an influence piece to it. In other words, people results.

Mm-Hmm. You are driven to be able. To help transform someone, change their trajectory. Totally. It doesn’t even matter what level. If you know that you’ve put out a piece of content that inherently helps people change their life, you go to bed with an enormous amount of peace. It’s 

Michael Hyatt: so true, and it’s, and it explains why I love personal coaching now.

Yes. Mm-Hmm. Because it’s the most transformative experience without question. You know, books change people and courses change people and events change people and not denying any of that. The coaching. That’s where you get down to the real nitty gritty. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Well, we actually, just right before you got here, Ken, we were in a coaching session, right, with two clients, one of whom is the founder, the other is the succeeding CEO, and it was such a rich conversation.

Mm-Hmm. I mean, we were, we were like invisibly high fiving each other across the table. Well, here’s the reason. Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: You can see it. Yes. You and I both are blessed. You as well. We write books, but. The occasional comment that makes its way through Amazon doesn’t mean anything like you or you making a point in a coaching session and you see the light bulb.

Yeah. Yes. It’s so rewarding. It’s 

Michael Hyatt: the influence. 

Ken Coleman: That’s it. And immediately you are going, I, that’s why I am here. 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: And, and so that’s the idea. So the missional part is really huge because, and I wanna tie this back to leadership. If leaders can figure out this, this methodology in their hiring 

Cross: Mm-Hmm.

Ken Coleman: In how they promote people. We make a huge mistake in the, in the leadership world in America, where a high performer, we reward them with a promotion sometimes into the wrong seat. 

Cross: Yeah. But 

Ken Coleman: we just go, oh, you gotta promote ’em. No, you don’t. You can pay ’em more. 

Cross: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: True. But don’t take a crushing salesperson who’s unbelievable what they do, who doesn’t, who isn’t motivated to influence people.

Their result could be achievement. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: And most, by the way, most great salespeople, their missional result will be achievement. Mm-Hmm. Because they like scoreboard. Yep. They wanna see a scoreboard. Yes, I need to know. I need to see my results. I don’t mind competition. And in fact, if I’m losing, I’m more motivated.

They’re motivated, and there’s nothing wrong with that motivation. Keep that person in a sales role. Yeah. Don’t put ’em in a leadership role. That’s right. Because what’s gonna happen is you’re gonna wonder what, what’s what, what’s off? I’m gonna tell you what’s off. You just robbed them of their natural motivation.

Wow. And here’s wow. And here’s the other thing about leaders. You gotta understand what you and I described with our boys is great parenting. 

Mm-Hmm. 

It’s, yeah. It’s manipulation. 

Cross: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: We’re professionals and it’s, and it’s purest form. And that’s great as a parent. Horrible as a leader. Yeah. Mm. 

Cross: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: If you are leading through manipulation as a leader.

You’re not leading anybody. Mm-Hmm. You’re trying to control somebody. That’s right. Wow. And so allowing a to, to, to a person to see themselves with this, I think it’s a wonderful hiring tool as well. So that’s, that’s why that piece, and I added it later on when I was first coaching, it was just talent and passion.

Mm-Hmm. But I realized something, the ideation of what should I do? 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: With my professional life, the ideas come when I know what I’m motivated by. 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: So I look at that influence and I go, okay, great. I know that’s screaming people, people, people. Mm-Hmm. ’cause there’s four types of work. I learned this from the uh, uh, pat LA What color is your parachute guy?

Oh yeah. Oh, that guy. Okay. He’s the legend. So he divided the world of work into four areas. People work, process, work, ideal, work an object or things, right? So you think more tactile. So I work on a car, I’m a mechanic, or maybe I invent something for artists. We, so you can take every job in the world, every profession, and put in one of those four buckets.

So for example. Hyatts and, and, and, and me. We are, we are in the people and idea space. Mm-Hmm. We’re all about people, but we have a lot of ideas. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Right. We’re versus let’s say a, uh, a counselor that would be almost strictly people. Mm-Hmm. Right. You’re using some methodologies, but it’s like you’re not sitting there coming up necessarily with you things.

You’re in the moment sitting with them. We’re writing books. You created some amazing products, whether it be your planner, you know, that’s an idea. Meeting with people. Mm-Hmm. So we can take all of the Hyatt work and put it in those two buckets. Yeah. So the idea here is, is when I see influence, I go That’s people, people, people.

Megan Hyatt Miller: so what are the other five? 

Ken Coleman: We have achievement, we have influence, we have service. We have solution. Hmm. And there’s one more there I think.

Lemme show you. Yeah. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: It’s fortunate. We have your book right here. Well hold that up for the camera. 

Ken Coleman: Oh, this is fun. So, uh. I’m under pressure here. Let’s get the results. So we’ve got influence, we have achievement. Oh, creation. I missed the C Oh, creation. Okay. That was, that 

Michael Hyatt: was Joel’s. Yeah. So Joel, her husband is the head of our content and product.

And he’s creation. Yeah. And he’s creation. 

Ken Coleman: Yeah. So the a achievement, creation, efficiency. So these are the people that are motivated by, I love when we’ve got everything working smoothly. Think project manager types. Yeah. Administrative assistants. They want everything. Operations people. I dotted. Ts crossed, thank goodness 

Megan Hyatt Miller: for those people.

Yeah. Yeah. We would be a disaster. Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: And so then we get into the, the, uh, influence service. And then last is solution. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Okay. 

Ken Coleman: Now my brain, I just needed two cheat codes, but 

Megan Hyatt Miller: That’s right. 

Ken Coleman: The idea here is, is, so wait a second. If I’m driven by solution, uh, then I’m always looking for another problem. Mm. So this doesn’t pigeonhole you into any type of industry.

This piece, this missional piece, right. It just ’cause you could be a leader and be driven by solution. 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. Well then 

Ken Coleman: you should be leaving all creation to somebody else. 

Michael Hyatt: Well, could you be a leader and be any of 

Ken Coleman: those? Yes, absolutely. Wow. ’cause remember, this is the personal driver, right? So for instance, how many CEOs don’t say anything public CEOs do, we think are driven by achievement.

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: I’m gonna tell you right now, I’m gonna take a guess. Elon Musk achievement. Probably, yeah. The next big thing. Colonies and Mars. Right? Unbelievable. So think about that. So then you could take, uh, what Jim Collins talks about the level five leader and good to great those guys and gals probably service, you know, ’cause he talks about they have extreme humility, you know, so they may be thinking, I wanna serve the rest of the leaders in the organization, but they could very well be a solution type.

CEO. Hmm. 

Michael Hyatt: You know what I love about this is that. You know, I think it’s easy to think there’s only one kind of leader. You know, it’s an, it’s an Enneagram three. It’s an Enneagram eight, maybe a seven, but it’s a certain type and we try to, to pigeonhole everybody into that. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Like it’s mostly about charisma.

I. Having all the answers and, and 

Michael Hyatt: what this says is you could be a leader that’s with any kind of personality. That’s right. Or any of the other things that, that map to this. 

Ken Coleman: Yeah. See, and here’s what’s fun. I’ve seen a lot of these assessments that include personality type and I, I went and talked to a couple of world renowned psychologists.

You both know them if I mention their name, and they were like, it’s junk. Mm-Hmm. Really? Yeah, because you can’t. Tie a personality to a professional role? No. Mm-Hmm. And so what we’ve done here is that’s why I decided to, let’s try this psychology route. We tested it before we ever launched this, and it came back and it was really winning.

Hmm. And so this is again, what motivates you. So again, let’s say you are a, in a leadership position. No matter what your results are, all this is telling you is what fires me up. That missional pieces, what motivates me. Yeah. So if I start doing too much of stuff that doesn’t, so let’s say, okay, let’s have some fun.

I’m gonna take a guess. Okay? I don’t mind if I’m wrong. So your missional result is influence. We know that you’re driven by that. 

Michael Hyatt: What is yours, by the way? 

Ken Coleman: Minus achievement. 

Michael Hyatt: Okay, 

Ken Coleman: but influences two. 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: By the way, I should just mention that there’s no right or wrong answer, but as you get your entire results.

We gave you your top three talents and your top three passions. Right? And we give you a primary mission, but we also let you see where you score on everything else. Hmm. So that you can see anything above average. I’m working with anything below. 

Michael Hyatt: I love that too. 

Ken Coleman: Delegate, eliminate. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. That’s 

Michael Hyatt: it.

You, you can’t make that much improvement in those areas. No. So just don’t even try waste time. 

Ken Coleman: Get different people. Maxwell said this so great, he used to say, he go, Hey, if I, if I’m a four or five and I I work really hard, I might be a seven. He goes, nobody pays for sevens. You know, that’s my version of, you know, and he’s right.

So if I’m working on things that I’m average at, at best, I’ll be good. But if I work on things I’m good at and things that I’m great at, I can be absolutely world class. Mm-Hmm. My unique best. That’s the key to this. And so, uh, my guess is, is that you would score a low on. I think you’re very creative. I think creation is, is somewhat motivating for me.

Mm-Hmm, 

Michael Hyatt: definitely. Yeah. So 

Ken Coleman: I’m gonna go influence, you’re high on creation is above the line. Um, I’m gonna say solution is really low for you. 

Michael Hyatt: I think so. I You have that on there, right there on the assessment. 

Ken Coleman: Well, we’ve got, yeah, I just got your top results. Well, let’s see where you score. You’re right.

Let me flip to it here. So here you can see, and for our listener and viewer, service, achievement and creation are above the average line.

So when it comes to the missional drivers, for you that don’t motivate you is efficiency and solutions. So in other words, don’t come to Michael Hyatt and say, I need you to figure out how to make this process. A lot more efficient, right? Yeah. You’re gonna go brain freeze. Right? Right. Same thing with with solution.

Hey, we got a big problem. There’s a real cog in the wheel here. We need you to not interested. Mm-Hmm. But boy, if we come to you and say, Hey, um, what you’re gonna be doing here is gonna be serving leaders. You’re all in. Right? If it’s, hey. Uh, we want to drive this podcast, we wanna drive the audience by 25% this year.

We think if we do this, this, and this, it’ll do it. You end, you’re going, let’s go. Why haven’t we already started? Yeah. Is that fair? Exactly. Absolutely. And I’m making this up. And then the creation piece, I mean, that’s how you come up with all these different products and, and services that your company has done for years, and then even as a publisher, that’s true.

There’s that creative element where you’re going, is this something we want to create? Yeah, exactly. Is this a book that we think. We’re gonna put our stamp on. So that is, uh, very, very true to you and that’s why this is huge. So what this creates then is if I were gonna create a product with you, and I’d say, all right, we gotta create a measurement tool, which probably should do this, where people look at their work.

If I followed a, a high performer or a CEO around for a day, and I just hung in the shadows, and I would mark down a little description of all the work they did in the day, and then I’d sit and they go, did this lift you? Did this drain you? Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. And that’s essentially it would line up with this, any work that’s efficiency, driven or solving problems 

Michael Hyatt: drains you, not me.

Totally. does this move around over time a 

Ken Coleman: little bit. I think it’s possible. 

Michael Hyatt: The reason I say that is I don’t think service would’ve been as high as it is on there years ago, but I’m in season of my life. My friend Ian Kran said, my mission yes, is to grow fruit on other people’s trees. 

Ken Coleman: Yes. 

Michael Hyatt: So service right now Yes.

Is a real focus. Yes. But I think it probably would’ve been younger or earlier in my career. Influence and achievement. 

Ken Coleman: A hundred percent. So the answer is yes. Okay. And what I mean, it can, it just means how have you changed? Because remember, the mission or result is all heart and so is passion. Yeah. 

Cross: Hmm.

Ken Coleman: Like it’s, the way I describe it is we’ve got three measurements in this. The three wires. Talent’s. Just all head knowledge. Yeah. I know. I’m good at this. People have told me I’m good at it my whole life. Mm-Hmm. There’s no Mm-Hmm. But what do I love to do and what motivates me? That does change. Your results will change as your heart changes.

Mm. Do you think, I love that. 

Michael Hyatt: If you’re a young person beginning your career and you, and you sort of buy into this idea that I need to be doing work that I love, do you think that’s a little bit of trial and error to figure out what you love? Yes. And takes time or that maybe even earlier in your career, you have to do stuff you don’t exactly love.

And just kind of put in your reps. Yes. 

Ken Coleman: I, you know, I’m having fun with that, but yes, and I, I think it’s both. It depends on the person. Here’s something interesting. Uh, there’s research out there that has shown that a lot of adults who make a career pivot, I. Their, in their thirties and forties retreat or pivot to this thing that they fantasized about when they were as early as nine or 10 years of age.

Really? Yeah. That’s a fascinating thing. So there’s a little something then I’m gonna be an astronaut. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I would be, I wouldn’t go to five, you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, because like a 5-year-old sees a taxi driver and goes, I want to be, you know? Right. They have no idea. But I do think there’s, I point this out because I do believe with certain people, and, and I’m saying this with a.

You know, we gotta hold this loosely, I do think with certain people that they can know very early on. Mm-Hmm. Uh, in fact, we’ve created a student version of this Oh. And we’ve tested it with high schoolers. Oh really? And it absolutely reads their mail as well. They’re able to understand it. They don’t have any work history.

But again, you take a student. Okay. So for parents listening in here 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: Um, your 16, 17, 18-year-old, um, they can get a lot out of an exercise like this. Mm-Hmm. Because they still have. Academic and extracurricular activities that they can draw from that, that say, I’m good at this. Yeah. And I enjoy doing this.

Mm-Hmm. You know, and so back to your question of the discovery piece. Let’s say that a young high schooler wants to, is considering nursing. Let’s say they take this and they, they score really high on service, by the way. They’ll have the huge gift of compassion, anybody that goes into health. Mm-Hmm.

You’ll see the result, the talent of compassion. Big time up there. Okay? ’cause they just walk around with their heart out in front and they just wanna help people. So in that situation. If your daughter or son says, Hey, nursing’s the play for me. Go, that’s great. Here’s what I think you should do. Mm-Hmm.

Uh, let’s make a list of all the types of nurses there are. Well, we got the nurse that checks you in. Mm-Hmm. That’s largely administrative. Yeah. And some kindness and customer service. Mm-Hmm. We got the nurse who’s in the operating room. That’s, that’s big time. Mm-Hmm. We got the nurse in the er. Hello.

That’s chaos. Lot of different things going on there. We got the labor and delivery nurse. Oh, that’s amazing. Babies. You know, you got the NICU nurse. Caring for the sick little babies, and in the dark days of a parent’s life, they’re just hanging on hoping their baby makes it. I mean, so my point is I could keep going.

So what I wanna do there is, is I wanna get that young person in the seat across from somebody in all of those fields, and as they begin to ask questions, tell me what your day’s like. Tell me what the hardest part of your gig is. Maybe they see the nurse cry and say, the hardest thing is not knowing what to say to a parent who’s just, oh, yeah.

I, I don’t know. Yeah. But, but my point is, is as we put them in that environment, this is to your question of the exploration. Exploration doesn’t have to be, you know, this, I go try this for two years. I try this exploration. That’s a whole distinction is let’s sit ’em in front of people who are winning in the space, who will be honest with these young people and say, here’s the best part of my day.

Here’s the worst part of my day. Here’s what I would avoid. Here’s what I think you should do. And as that kid sits there, here’s what I know to be true. The tuning fork of their heart will either go ding, ding, ding, or the family feud ex. And it’s that simple. And I’ve coached kids. I know that to be true.

Hmm. And so this is the number one challenge for parents. We feel so much cultural pressure to get our kid prepared is college the way it trade school. We want our kids to win. And this kind of methodology, parents, all it does is it provides you and your child or you, yourself. This mirror where you can see yourself.

This is who I really am. I love that. Now, what does that mean out here? And again, we must explore. Okay. Do I wanna do people work? Process work, idea work or things work? 

Megan Hyatt Miller: You know, that makes so much sense. Know as you were talking, so my kids are 23, almost 21, 16, 14, 5. 

Ken Coleman: Wow. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: So we are literally doing every stage.

You really, 

Ken Coleman: I’m gonna pray for extra for you today. The 23 to five 

Megan Hyatt Miller: range. Just say a lot. A lot of friends. Yeah, absolutely. To our oldest two are out of the house. Okay. And our oldest son, who’s 23, is right smack in the middle of this, trying to figure out. Who he is. Yeah. What he’s made to do. Yeah. What he, what he is wired 

Cross: to do.

Yeah. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: And I’m just thinking that a great exercise would be to get this book, each of us, to have a copy of this book. So if you’re wondering how do you take this assessment? You buy the book, find the work you’re wired to do. Yeah. It comes in the 

Ken Coleman: book you, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: yeah. It’s like, you know, the old strength finder one where it’s, it’s in there.

That’s right. You read the low code and you redeem it. But I’m thinking how cool would it be for him to take this assessment? 

Cross: Yeah. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: For my husband, Joel and I to have taken it and then have a family conversation. Yeah. About here’s how this self-knowledge looks for dad and I in our careers. Because now it’s like fast forward, like we’ve already, we’ve already kind of done a lot of this work and you can see, just like you were talking about with my dad and the influence, how that shows up.

Finn, our oldest son. I think we would then start to make connections. Oh, well, I mean, for for sure people is like, everything about people is him. 

Ken Coleman: Yeah, absolutely. That that 

Megan Hyatt Miller: makes his heart come alive. Yeah, and I think he would feel a lot of permission. I. To be who he is instead of somebody he’s not. Like you said, there’s a lot of pressure, hundred percent to be somebody else, but anyway, I just, I just wanna encourage you, if you’re listening and you’re thinking, okay, how might I be able to either use this with myself, my team, or Definitely if you have young adult or teenage children, I really think this family conversation, we did a lot of that growing up.

We did a lot of things where we would take assessments together and then talk about it, and we still do Mm-Hmm. And it gives you a common language Sure. Does. It really brings you closer together and you can appreciate your distinctives, your differences. Yes. Um, without them kind of driving you crazy. And in this case, here’s, here’s lot clarity what kids need 

Ken Coleman: to understand and, and adults need to hear this.

Your greatness lies within your uniqueness. It’s not the other way around. Mm-Hmm. Everybody’s choosing to chase great. And I love that. We all want to root for a great team, go to a great concert, eat a great meal. We all want great, but very few people are willing to do what it takes to be great. And I think what it takes to be great is to be so completely self-aware of your unique wiring.

And when you figure that out, everybody’s favorite topic, topic is themselves, let’s be honest. And, and so there really is. Wonderful, uh, confidence that comes from, in fact, here, here, here’s what I think. I think that this assessment and the work that’s done does three things for you. Number one, it gives you clarity.

Mm-Hmm. Who you are, what you want to do. Mm-Hmm. Why you want to do it? Mm-Hmm. You begin to go, oh, okay. This is why my heart may be a little faster about this. Mm-Hmm. And then as this happens, I’m like, you know, my brother loves to do this. I think he’s crazy. You know? Yeah. And we begin to go, okay. And so clarity is first, and this is really fun.

Clarity breeds confidence. Mm-hmm. And confidence breeds courage. Yeah. Yep. That’s the magic. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: And so if we talk about being great professional, and that’s the context by which I’m, I’m trying to help people make their mark professionally, you cannot do it absent of clarity. We can’t be confident. When we’re not clear.

And so if a person is mid-career or they’re taking on some new challenges or whatever, or a kid’s trying to find their path, we always wanna drive people to clarity. That’s my mission. Clarity on who you are. Because once we get that, the confidence takes over and go, okay, I know who I am. Mm-Hmm. I know what I wanna do, kind of why I wanna do it.

Now I gotta figure out where. Yeah. And that, that is a process. This doesn’t tell you where no assessment can, that would be garbage. And I wouldn’t promise that. But what it does is it gives you Mm-Hmm. This job description, when I look at your, your statement, this is a purpose statement that everybody gets.

Michael Hyatt, I was created to use my talents of instruction, inspection, and communication to perform my passions of leading, promoting, and creating to accomplish my mission of influence by producing change in progress. That’s a job description. It’s, that’s awesome. Now it’s 35,000 feet, right? But I can go look in the world of work and I can lay this over and go, right, you’re trying to match it up.

Does this job. Allow me to spend 75% of my day, this is the rubber meets the road. How do you really use this if you’re trying to pick direction? Does this thing I’m looking at allow me to spend three fourths of my day, rule of thumb using what I do best? Mm, to do what I enjoy to produce results that matter to me?

That by the way, is purpose. That’s as plainly as I can say it. No extra oxygen in that sentence. If I use what I do best to do, what I enjoy to produce results I care about, I am a happy person and probably really healthy and potentially very wealthy. Gosh, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: I love that. And, 

Michael Hyatt: and it just gets you, I think, to the right job that’ll give you the satisfaction faster.

Yes, because. I think a Finn and you know, as he’s trying to figure out what he wants to do with his life, and I was the same way when I was, you know, his age. But it’s just, it’s, you feel like you’re looking for a treasure and you just gotta stumble upon it because there’s no strategy, no fly. It feels like you’re 

Megan Hyatt Miller: waiting for lightning to strike.

But if I, but 

Michael Hyatt: if I said to you, it’s on this island. I can’t tell you where it’s on the island, but it’s on this island, so don’t look at all this other stuff. Yeah. That would’ve been a huge, would’ve been 

Megan Hyatt Miller: hugely shortcut. 

Michael Hyatt: Helpful. 

Ken Coleman: Yeah. I’m gonna give it to you right now. You ready? Yeah. And I want you to use this with three.

Okay, great. Okay. The three questions that everybody needs, and I walk them through this in the book, so once you get your results, the next thing I have you do, and I do this on the air, so I’ve done this about 10,000 times. 

Cross: Oh my goodness. So this is literally, 

Ken Coleman: I’m not kidding. 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: They keep a log of this and so they’re telling me we’re approaching 10,000 calls, but when someone is at this point and they go, okay, I see this part and, and, and really I do this as a cheat code.

When somebody hasn’t taken the assessment, I just go right to who are the people you must wanna help? Mm. And I make ’em answer it. Mm. Tell me the people. Mm-Hmm. I want you to describe the people that if I could pay you. So forget about job title. Mm-Hmm. Forget about path. Mm-Hmm. Who are the people you must wanna help?

’cause by the way, that’s what everybody wants to do is help people. 

Cross: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: It’s just how am I helping? Yeah. Is it through idea work? Is it process work? Mm-Hmm. People are always on the other end of it. Okay. So I would, I would look at Finn and go, who are the people right now? 23. It’s okay. Who are they today?

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: If he had a great salary tomorrow and you were just gonna help these type of people, who would be the people he will begin to ideate? Mm-Hmm. Now here’s the second question. What’s the problem or desire that they have Now? He’s already essentially identified that. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-Hmm. But we’re 

Ken Coleman: going a level deeper.

This is brilliant. You’re gonna say it 

Megan Hyatt Miller: explicitly now this is 

Ken Coleman: coaching. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: So we go, who are the people wanna help? And so I’ll give you an example. I had a lady call me on the show, uh, I don’t know, six months ago, and she said, Ken, you’re not gonna know what to do with me. I said, okay, shoot. She goes, I make $350,000 in pharmaceutical sales and I’m miserable.

And she starts laughing and I could tell this is not a miserable lady. Yeah. But this is a lady who’s like just so blatantly honest. I said, this is great. So I, I said, I’m, this is gonna be easy for you. And I said, who are the people you must wanna help? She said, women. I said, be more specific. What are the problem or desire that these women have?

And she goes, women that are struggling with their health, specifically their weight and their self-esteem. Mm-Hmm. And I said. Wow. I said, that’s, that’s powerful. And uh, I said, uh, how, why is that the issue? Like, why is it. Health, and I knew what the answer was. I just needed her to say it. She goes, because six months ago I lost 60 pounds and it changed my life, and she started crying.

Now I stepped in with one little additional question, but the third and final question is, what’s the solution? 

Cross: Oh yeah. 

Ken Coleman: To that problem or desire. So I said, what’s the solution to helping women get healthy? She goes, I’m great at sales. I wanna be a nutritionist, a health coach, meet these women where they are, fire ’em up.

Instead of sell ’em a product, I wanna sell ’em a future. I was like, whoa. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: An 

Ken Coleman: changed her life at eight years. She’s an extraordinary woman. But, so those three questions for anybody, even if you never took my assessment and I, I, ’cause I wanna give value to your audience. Mm-Hmm. If, even if you never take this, if you just wrestle with those three questions.

Okay. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Say ’em again. 

Ken Coleman: Who are the people you most want to help? What is the problem or desire? That you wanna help them with? Because by the way, it doesn’t have to be a problem if you wanna make women look beautiful with their hair, that’s a desire. Mm-Hmm. If you want us, uh, design clothing, that is my point, is all work good results.

So what is the problem or desire that you want to help that person with? And then finally, what’s the solution to that problem or desire that fires you up the most? Hmm. So to give you a personal example, when I left Maxwell. I felt that I was supposed to go into broadcasting. I love sports more than just about anything.

So I went that route. I got on the air and I started doing sports radio in Atlanta. No small achievement, but something was missing. Hmm. And what I realized was the I I, I wanted to help people who were struggling with a sense of purpose. I. And a sense of meaning. It was a little bit of that ministry piece coming in, plus that personal experience I shared at the top Mm-Hmm.

And, and, and it wasn’t helping people enjoy more about their favorite sports team. Wow. So what was off was I wasn’t getting the influence and the achievement piece of helping people. I was just entertaining. Okay. So if I were to walk through that exercise back then, I didn’t have it for myself, but I eventually stumbled into it.

Who are the people I most wanna help? People who are lost. Little bit off. They’re just off the path. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: What’s the problem? A lack of self-awareness. Mm-Hmm. A lack of understanding of that true. What’s that North star and what’s the solution to that that most fires you up? And I was like speaking, writing, coaching.

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: This was before Dave Ramsey ever enters the picture. And I could not articulate anything that I’m doing now. And, and so I want people to understand that’s the beginning part of ideation. The idea is the exploration, I think is as much in here and here. Mm-Hmm. It is getting the head and the heart aligned.

Yeah. And that’s really what I hope this tool does for people. It takes our head out of the game in the sense of we don’t overthink. We’re forced to deal with, this is who we really are. 

we’ve 

Michael Hyatt: talked a lot about, um, how parents can help their kids using a tool like this. Yeah. The thing I wanna talk to about is how could this help somebody who’s a business leader or a business owner Yeah.

Inside of their business? Yeah, absolutely. It could be used for hiring. Yeah. Could it be used for. Placing people in the right positions. It’s 

Ken Coleman: both. And I think let’s start with the leader first. I think you gotta check yourself on this first, you know? Mm-Hmm. So if you’re taking this assessment back to that idea of do, do a little, uh, self examination and then get your close team around you, maybe your personal assistant, and go, am I spending most of my day doing this kind of work?

So we start there. Yeah. Because you know this so well, uh, if you’re gonna start to implement this in the organization. They won’t do what you aren’t doing. True, true. And so if you start going, Hey, so you’re gonna have to go, Hey guys, uh, this is only breaking news to me. Okay. But I took this assessment and I realized that, uh, I’ve been doing some stuff.

A lot of the stuff I’m doing is based on a service result. And I don’t care about service at all. I just wanna create, create, create. And that’s okay. Yeah. Like I’m the creative force of the small business and I’m getting involved in customer service stuff. Huh. Now I know why I was grumpy to you. Larry, I bit your head off the other day in a meeting.

That’s what I’d like to see leaders do is first start with them and go, am I in my sweet spot here? Am I actually on purpose here? Then we go to the rest of the organization and go, Hey, here’s what we’re gonna do. Let’s start looking at this. And I, I think this is gonna help us free ourselves from stuff that may be draining us.

And we begin to delegate. We begin to eliminate and we make sure the people are on the right seat of the bus. And then it turns out to be a really great team, you know, the great sports teams. Are marked by really one thing. Everybody knows their role, accepts their role and maximizes their role. Hmm. But I think the big miss in corporate America and even small business today is we have people walking around.

They don’t truly know their role ’cause something’s off. 

Michael Hyatt: So true. They know 

Ken Coleman: what their job description is. 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah, 

Ken Coleman: but it doesn’t feel like that’s Mm-Hmm. That’s me. And we all do work where you go, oh, this is, yeah, 

Michael Hyatt: this is Well, and when and when people don’t know what they’re supposed to do, they’re not doing work that they care about.

They disengage 100% and disengagement. In fact, we got this quote from gala, a quote. Yeah. 68%. Yeah. Percent, two third of workers not engaged in the workers. And by the way, 

Ken Coleman: that number has not changed over the last decade. You can go look that up. Isn’t that interesting? Wow. I study that stuff like crazy.

And that by the way, that is not meaning that 68% of Americans hate their job. It’s 68% are essentially disengaged. The big phrase that took over about a year and a half ago, it was quiet, quitting. Yeah. Right. In other words, I’m gonna do what I’m told. I’m gonna deliver the results. You’ll get the TPS report when you’re, I’m supposed to put the TPS report in, but outside of that, if I see one of my coworkers struggling and I know that I can help, I’m not gonna go above and beyond it.

My heart’s not in it. I’m not gonna go to my leader and go, Hey, uh, you seem, you seem a little fried. Is there anything you can shovel off on me? Like, like that’s going above and beyond. You know, this idea of knowing your role, sh uh, accepting your role and maximizing your role. Great teams are made up of players who are showing up to the weight room at 5:00 AM team workouts at eight.

They’re watching film all the time. I know my job is to be a linebacker, but I’m gonna go well above and beyond tackling and practicing. I’m gonna study film. I’m gonna help the new rookie linebacker that came in and go, Hey, if I get hurt, your next man up. I. And I plan on coming back from an injury, so you better freaking know how to play this and I’m gonna watch film with you.

That’s what I mean by like, but you don’t get that when you’re disengaged. No, 

Michael Hyatt: you don’t. 

Ken Coleman: Yeah. Engagement drives all that. 

Michael Hyatt: We, we, uh, did the, I dunno if you guys do this at Ramsey, but we did the In Best Places to Work. Yes. Survey. We do that every year. So the most recent one that came back said that we had a 93% engaged workforce.

Ken Coleman: That’s amazing. 

Michael Hyatt: And so I would say. To people. If you’re a, if you’re a leader or a manager, or a CEO or a business owner, imagine what would happen if you went from a third of the people being en engaged to, you know, 90% engaged. What would be possible for your business? What would be possible for your desire to scale the business or to create a business that would run less dependent upon you?

Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: Well, we know from the Gallup data, productivity and profitability are the two outputs. Hmm. When engagement goes up. Of course productivity goes up. Mm-Hmm. As a result of that. Profitability goes up. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: And so, as a matter of fact, I gotta introduce you to the CEO of Gallup. Great guy. He came in, I interviewed him about a year ago and then he invited me to dc.

I spent three hours with him. ’cause I nerd out on all the Gallup data. I mean, I really study it all the time ’cause of what I do. ’cause I wanna know right what’s going on. And he said this over and over again, and he, and it all comes down to getting people. There’s two, well, there’s three human needs.

This is all extra and not related necessarily to this. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: You’re gonna hear it here and only hear, well, 

Ken Coleman: no, it’s in the Gallup data, but it was the largest engagement survey they ever did. 180 countries, employees across 180 countries. Three human needs. Number one. Purpose in your work. So this does matter to that.

Mm-Hmm. When, when people saw that I’m, I’m built for this Mm-Hmm. You know, like, this is, this is this, I get this. And by the way, the motivational piece is more important than the other two. Yeah. I’m not surprised. Alright. Uh, so purpose in their work was the number one human need. The number two human need was recognition for your unique contribution.

Mm. So, Hey Meg, I saw what you did. You pulled that client aside on a break. I saw them change and then they sent us an email saying, you know, yeah. It’s, it’s a very specific 

Michael Hyatt: Yep. 

Ken Coleman: Private and public call out. 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: I see what you’re doing. Mm-Hmm. And it’s very unique to them. And then the third thing is a relationship with their leader.

Hmm. So the three human needs, meaning, and purpose and work recognition for your unique contribution, and then a relationship with your leader. Now the relationship with the leader is not, Hey, let’s go grab a beer and, uh, we’re going fishing together. It’s a coach relationship. Mm-Hmm. And again, I’m bringing it full back to this question of how do you use this assessment?

See, a coach is defined by someone who watches a player if we use it in the athletic context, but it works in, in leadership. Mm-Hmm. And I, I’ve got a player on my team and they’re in this position. My job is to give them the training, the encouragement, the equipment. To actually be good in that position.

Yeah. That’s the coach’s mandatory role. Outside of that, it is constant encouragement. Hey, you messed up on that play. No big deal. Next play. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: We’ll look at the film later. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: You know, it’s that constant, I’m believe in you. That’s the transfer of belief. 

Cross: Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: And so people need that. And the, one of the greatest ways a leader can, can absolutely use a tool like this is help somebody see themselves.

Maybe the way they’ve never seen themselves before. Yeah. And you talk about it’s powerful, the loyalty and the drive. If you know that this leader helped me see me, and I’ve never had anybody speak that over me. And I see this, and not only do they see it in me, they’re placing me in a position where it feels kind of easy.

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: Because I’m wired for it. You do that as a leader. Watch out, watch not only the engagement, but watch the longevity increase. Mm-Hmm. And the other, the other issue in the corporate world today is not just engagement, it is retention. Turnover, retention. Mm-Hmm. And so you want to increase retention and have a longer life cycle.

Listen, people aren’t looking for a better job today. Mm-Hmm. In 2024. And this always freaks of the media out when I say this. People aren’t looking for a better job, they’re looking for a better life. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep. 

Ken Coleman: And you had, you meant to that, you had better start thinking about hiring a person and putting them in a position to where their life is better because of the job you put ’em in.

Mm. Yeah. That’s a different ball game. Totally. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Well, and talk about a competitive advantage. It’s huge. 

Ken Coleman: Without question. Yeah. They’re not gonna, where are they gonna go? 

Michael Hyatt: Right, right. 

Ken Coleman: They let ’em, let ’em start kicking the tires. 

Michael Hyatt: I, I think the biggest mistake a lot of employers make is that they think. When they’re thinking about their employees, they’re thinking, oh, you know, to retain employees, I gotta pay ’em more.

And it’s all about the money. Employees don’t think that way. I’m not saying it’s not important, 

Ken Coleman: but it’s 

Michael Hyatt: not the top thing. 

Ken Coleman: It’s not. In fact, the data backs you up. The data backs you up. That says that people would prefer a public recognition more than they would a pay raise. Isn’t that so 

Cross: interesting?

Ken Coleman: Now, that’s shocking to people, but that’s because, don’t forget, we’re all little boys and little girls. Mm-Hmm. So true. Have grown up. Wanna know, do you see me? Mm-Hmm? Do you love me? Yep. And you never lose that. Never lose it. And in the work world, um, I, I think there are, if I was gonna coach, if I was gonna teach only one leadership lesson, I could teach it in less than five minutes.

And this would be the only leadership lesson I would ever teach. And that is every week you better sit with your direct reports and ask ’em two questions. How are you doing? How can I help you win in your job? The first question is a very personal question. They will not answer it fully right away. Hmm.

You’ll have to keep that one up. They’ll give you surface answers for a while. ’cause they’re trying to figure out what’s going on. Am safe. What’s your angle? Am I safe? And so over time they will begin to answer that and they’ll say, well, I’m struggling. My mom had a stroke. Yeah. And, uh, she’s gonna be okay, but it’ll really freak me out.

And I’ve, I’m struggling. And in that moment, as a leader, you gotta go. Hey, we got you. Yeah. What’s on your plate right now? What do you need? Mm-Hmm. What, what’s best for you right now? And they’re gonna look at you like you got horns growing outta your head, but it’s in that moment you have a chance to truly lead.

Mm-Hmm. And go. I’ll tell you what, uh, let’s, let’s, let me pull the team together. We’ll take this off of you. We’re gonna step in. Family matters. You go Mm-Hmm. 

Cross: You 

Ken Coleman: go Keep me posted. And when your head gets good, come on back. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: Now lemme tell you something. Wow. From that moment on. You have built enormous trust with that one person.

Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. So that first question, how are you doing? It’s not walking by in the hallway. How you doing? No, no. How you doing? You doing okay? You doing good? Great. And if they don’t answer right away, don’t turn into Dr. Phil. It’ll come. Right. You know, because then it gets creepy. You like that’s, that’s gonna take a little bit of time.

No, I mean, really? Yeah. Really. You’re not telling me. You know, because, because they, they, they, they’re not used to that. Mm-Hmm. And so the second question is also important, and that is. How can I help you win in your job? Now, here’s the weird thing about this. Until they begin to answer the first question, honestly, they’ll never really give you the answer to the second question.

Mm. Because to your point, they gotta feel safe enough to go, Hey, I’m struggling a little bit. Know that you actually care about ’em and the human, and then once you care about it as a human, that same person, that same person I just used example, look at you and go. Yeah. I, I, I don’t have the software. The software that you gave us is, it’s just, it doesn’t work.

And I, and they’re still gonna be a little cautious. ’cause it’s hard to tell the bosses this. It’s, 

Michael Hyatt: yeah. 

Ken Coleman: But when they know you care about ’em, they’re gonna be willing to go, well, I could use an assistant. I’m dying. I, I, I can’t do the output that you’re asking me to do. Only when they know you care about them.

Yeah. Will they actually trust you enough to say, I need your help, man. But that’s really what’s going on in the world of work today. That’s why people leave. They leave leaders, not sometimes because of what the leader did to them, but because of what the leader didn’t do for them. Yeah. And I think if you can ask those two questions on a weekly Say that, say 

Michael Hyatt: that again, because I people 

Ken Coleman: Yeah, 

Michael Hyatt: yeah.

This is, that’s a big impact. 

Ken Coleman: Yeah. And I, this is coming from 10,000 people telling me why they’re leaving. Uh, they’re always leaving because of the leader. 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: Always. 

Michael Hyatt: They don’t quit a job. They quit a leader.

Ken Coleman: They quit a leader, even if it’s a great opportunity. Yep. Uh, they’re leaving leader, and most of the time it’s not because the leader did something to them in the form of an insult or Mm-Hmm.

Passed them over or treat them with disrespect, but what the leader did not do for them. 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. Wow. 

Ken Coleman: They, they will go where they feel cared for or they feel like there’s some potential. Remember back to the statement, people want a better life. They will stay with you longer. They will follow you to the gates of hell if they believe.

They are in a better situation in their life as a whole because they get to work with you. 

Cross: Wow. 

Ken Coleman: That’s the challenge before leaders today. So understand that’s really good. What are you doing for your people? Well, I got news for you. Everything you’re doing for them is worthless if you’re not answering, if they’re not answering those two questions on a regular basis.

Megan Hyatt Miller: I love that, man. This has 

Michael Hyatt: been so powerful. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: It really has. I hate that we have to wrap up because I’ve like so many more questions. I know we’ll have to have you on again. I would love that. For sure. Thank you. Um, I think this directly relates. To the idea of the double win. Because if you’re not ultimately spending the majority of your time in your desire zone, it’s hard to win at work, you know?

Yeah. And I think this is a great tool in this book, um, this assessment to get clarity on what those things are in your desire zone. So I love 

Michael Hyatt: the Desire Zone, by the way. Yeah. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. It’s pretty, pretty great. But before it, 

Michael Hyatt: it really dovetails with this too. It does, yeah, it does. Similar, but. Better. 

Ken Coleman: No, no, no, no, no.

I think this is just a tool, but I love the way you described the Desire Zone, and I would say that this will help you get there. I do. I think so too. I 

Megan Hyatt Miller: think it’s a great diagnostic to help you get there, before we are like done. Done. 

Ken Coleman: Okay. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: I gotta have you answer three questions. Rapid fire. Oh, my 

Michael Hyatt: favorite thing.

Megan Hyatt Miller: One sentence and, and explain 

Michael Hyatt: the double win to our, our listeners. Yeah, because I, they’re listening to the Double Win podcast, so they probably know why they’re here. They pro. Yeah. You probably know 

Megan Hyatt Miller: why you’re here, but in case you just randomly. Searched for something and you found this podcast ’cause you were just like a huge Ken Coleman fan, 

Ken Coleman: right?

We know that’s what was Double 

Megan Hyatt Miller: win, is winning at work and succeeding at life. That’s it. So we don’t want you just to succeed. Yes. In the work domain. We want you to succeed Yes. In all of your life, including, you know, your relationships, money, your body, et cetera, et cetera. So first question is, what is your biggest obstacle in this season of your life to winning at work and succeeding at life?

Ken Coleman: A lack of patience. While completely driven by passion. It it’s, yeah, that’s, it’s really hard to, that’s good Cowy. 

Michael Hyatt: That’s well said. It is. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. Okay. That’s great. That’s supposed to do one sentence. Yeah, that’s it. You’re gonna, I get 

Michael Hyatt: that you understand that. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Okay. So how do you personally know that you’ve gotten the double win that you’re winning at work and succeeding at life?

Ken Coleman: When I am fulfilling the role of husband and father. To the best of my ability, and I am growing in my ability to reach people. Those are the measurements. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: That’s great. 

Ken Coleman: That’s really good. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: And then what’s one ritual or routine that helps you do what you do? 

Ken Coleman: Reflection at the end of the day? Hmm. Learn this from John Maxwell.

He did it with a glass of red wine, he said in the hot tub I do with a cigar and a glass of ginger beer. And I reflect on where I won, where I lost. What I need to do different tomorrow because of the win or the loss. 

Michael Hyatt: What’s that look like? Are you, are you actually writing that down or are you talking through it with your wife or you just No, it’s by myself.

Ken Coleman: By myself and, and she 

Megan Hyatt Miller: doesn’t like the cigars. She loves as, as a wife who, uh, formally had a husband who smoked cigars. Not, I’m not formally a wife. I’m still a wife to the same husband, but the cigars are former. To be clear, I feel sad 

Ken Coleman: for him. I. No, it’s, it’s actually, it’s actually a form of meditation.

Mm. I’m not writing it down. I’m downed. Um, it’s, it’s quiet and, uh, it’s toward the end. I mean, everybody’s kind of in bed and it’s just, it’s not every night’s a cigar that would be unhealthy. Good to know, because 

Megan Hyatt Miller: I was gonna talk to you about that. Yeah. 

Ken Coleman: No, but it’s, it is a quiet moment by myself outside, and I’m just running through the day, rewinding while it’s still fresh.

That’s great. Where did I win? Where did I lose Why To both. Then what does that mean? I need to do tomorrow? And that’s become so good. It’s become a really easy routine. It’s not overwhelming, it’s just kind of in the moment present. Um, and it helps me because I am such an emotional guy. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: And as I’m growing older, I’m learning the discipline of being present in my feelings.

Mm. Not letting my feelings. Drive the moment, but kind of sit back in it a little bit and, uh, very healthy. It’s really wise trying great amount of therapy. 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah, no kidding. I mean that, I mean, well I think as Eddie Gram trees, we have a really hard time tapping into our emotions because it creates unproductivity.

If I have to deal with an emotion, I can’t be as productive. Yeah. So I just wanna bury it. 

Ken Coleman: I’m gonna confess something ’cause I feel like I’m supposed to. 

Michael Hyatt: Okay. Is 

Ken Coleman: that okay? Mm-Hmm. Yes. I know we’re past time. That’s okay. Um. Being a three if you’re, if you’re not careful, it’s not about arrogance, at least for me, it is about being surrounded by measurements.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: And this is the world that I’ve Yeah. Asked for. I’ve created, and one of the things I struggle with, I’ll be 50 this year. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Ken Coleman: And still struggling with it is. The desire to achieve and the desire to influence. If I’m not careful, I become my worst critic. Yeah. It’s not enough for me. Yep. And that’s dangerous.

It’s, and I’m just confessing that ’cause it’s, it’s gotta be about people. Yeah. It’s true for me too. Yeah. Because if I get caught up in the numbers and I’m not even talking about comparison, that’s part of it. But I mean, just. What I will do to you. Best to you. Yeah. Beat the crap outta myself. Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

Validation, A false narrative. 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. You know, I can’t, I can’t be validated. I can’t be whole. I can’t, I mean, it’s a whole other podcast. Its, it’s, but seriously, you know, how, how we can show up in an unhealthy way, but I’m, I’m grateful. Thank you for confessing that. Yeah. And um, you know, I think I started some awareness of that about the time I was 50.

Yeah. But it was, it wasn’t until I got into therapy. This is the plug for therapist. Yeah. Until I got into, um. Meeting with a therapist on a regular basis. Yeah. That started to change. And my therapist said to me, you know, he’s, he said, you know, the thing about therapy is only the healthy people come, you know, the people that, that are really, really unhealthy.

They don’t wanna come. So good for you for going. Yeah. And don’t feel like it’s an admission if you’re listening to this and thinking, well, I would never do therapy because what does that say about me? Well, it says you wanna grow. Mm-Hmm. It says you wanna be healthy, you wanna show up as a better version of yourself.

That’s true. So, yeah. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: That’s excellent. Well, if you’re wondering what your next step is. It’s to get this book, to take the assessment, find the work you’re wired to do. You can get it anywhere. Books are sold, anywhere else. People should look to find you. 

Ken Coleman: Ken coleman.com. That’s where they can figure everything out.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Excellent. Thank you. You can figure out your whole life literally there. Thanks 

Ken Coleman: buddy. You bet. Everything I’d hoped. Thank you. Appreciate, appreciate you guys. Good to be 

Megan Hyatt Miller: with you. Well, that was such. A fun conversation. I mean, man, we have a lot in common with Ken. 

Michael Hyatt: Well, Ken’s one of the funniest people I’ve ever met. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. You 

Michael Hyatt: know, he is just very witty and, and just, you know, always on his toes. And I’ve always enjoyed being with him for that reason. Yeah. And by the way, you know, he really kind of got his start, uh, not only doing the work behind the scenes, but on stage, like as an mc.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. Remember that. And it 

Michael Hyatt: was so fun. So, leader, cast, we’ve done some things there. Yeah. Uh, together as well. But why does this resonate with you? 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Well, I think what I appreciate about Ken, and I think this is near and dear to our heart, is that he has a high view of work. And I think that, you know, we’re living in a time in our culture where sometimes, you know, you think about like the quiet quitting that was happening post covid.

Mm-hmm. Some of the things that we’re seeing about burnout, engagement, all that, all that kind of stuff, which, some of which we talked about in the conversation that almost like work is the enemy and the goal of it is to do like. As little as possible and, and like, that’s not where your real life happens.

Your real life happens. Outside of work and it’s almost like work is the enemy. And that may sound funny coming from us because we always talk about the double win, winning at work and succeeding at life. Um, and really what we’re trying to do is, is correct for work being people over-indexing for work.

You know, people like you guys who are. High achievers who are probably prone to working too much, neglecting other areas of your life. But it’s not because we think work is bad. In fact, we think work is inherently good. And that comes from our faith-based perspective. You know, we, we believe that work is good and that it’s redemptive and sanctifying and fulfilling in all of those things, and Ken does too.

And so I think his assessment. Helps us get clearer on what our highest and best contribution is. And it really overlaps kind of with the, the freedom compass that we talk a lot about. 

Michael Hyatt: Well, I was gonna say that, you know, the thing that I, I really resonated with is it similar to the freedom compass.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Michael Hyatt: And I think the reason that we created the Freedom Compass. By the way, that’s found in my book, free to Focus. But the reason we like that is because it helps you identify the specific kind of work where your passion and your, um, proficiency come together. What you love and what you’re good at. And Ken does that too.

You know, that’s where you’re gonna have the most, create the most leverage, have the most impact in the world when you’re focused on that kind of work and when you’re feeling, you know, like the most work life. Satisfaction, but he has a slightly different model, but it basically gets at the same thing.

Yeah. Where people can be deployed to do their best work. Mm-Hmm. And not just any work, but the work that really aligns with who God made them to be. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep. I love that. And I think he’s very practical in how he thinks about that. And I felt like he shared some really good practical solutions and applications that will, um, that really help people to put this into practice in their own lives.

Michael Hyatt: We would just encourage you guys to go take the assessment. Uh, this will be in the show notes, but it’s called the Get Clear Career Assessment, and it’s definitely worth taking, and it might be something you wanna do with your entire team and then discuss the results. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: I also think this is a cool thing to do if you have adult children. I haven’t done this yet with my adult children, but I think that they would, I.

Really benefit from this because one of the things happening with young people, and I know this is an area of passion for kin, is there are so many options. It’s like paralyzing. 

Michael Hyatt: It is, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: you know, that has not always historically been true, but it is true now. And so we need things that help us get clearer among those, those options so we can make a decision about, you know, what to pursue in our life and just, 

Michael Hyatt: and just narrow down the options and just narrow down.

And this is a great mechanism for doing that. Yeah. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: you guys so much for listening this week. I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation with Ken Coleman, and if you have, I would love to ask you to review the show that really helps us get this message of the double win, winning at Work and succeeding at life to more people.

We want to get that message out. So if you will review the show and if you can give us five stars, that helps. It helps us put it on the radar of other people like you, who also want to win at work and succeed at life. So thanks so much for listening and we’ll look forward to another great conversation next week