13. SHASTA NELSON: The Power of Friendships

Episode Transcript

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Shasta Nelson: Studies show that feeling lonely on an ongoing basis is worse than smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So yeah, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Oh my gosh.

So today we’re talking with Shasta Nelson, who’s a relationship expert with a special focus on friendships, and I heard her a few months ago at a conference I was attending in Nashville and was blown away.

Michael Hyatt: So she has several books, the Business of Friendship making, the Most of the Relationships where we spend most of our time. Friend intimacy, how to deepen friendships for lifelong health and happiness and friendships don’t just happen. She’s been featured on a major platform such as The Today Show, CNN, and the New York Times regularly speaks a conference.

She has a TED Talk, which I suggest you start there, but Founder of Girlfriend Circles a community dedicated to fostering female friendships, and I really like what she says about loneliness and friendship’s. The antidote to that. We’re gonna dive deep into that in this conversation. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: And by the way, this is not just for women.

Michael Hyatt: That’s right. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: This might actually be more for men than women. 

Michael Hyatt: Well, I got a ton of value out of it. Yeah. So without further ado, here’s our conversation with Shasta. 

Shasta, welcome to the show.

Shasta Nelson: Thank you, so happy to be here.

Michael Hyatt: heard you speak a couple of months ago at a Dan Sullivan event, coach Conn in Nashville, and I’m, I’m just gonna be honest, like I, I kind of went into your. Workshop because I couldn’t get into the workshop I wanted to, but there was a reason for that because I didn’t know what I didn’t know, and I 

was blown away by your talk.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-Hmm. 

It’s true. It’s so, thank you. It’s actually what you came back talking about. Yeah. 

Michael Hyatt: It was the single biggest takeaway from the whole conference.

Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: Wow. Well, I’m so grateful to have been there and so grateful to be on today. I give high props to any, any podcast or any author, any leader, speaker who is. Elevating the conversation of our relationships and our friendships. It is just singly one of the most significant issues of our time, and yet it’s amazing how we still kind of treat it like a, eh, not that important, eh, kind of like, you know, so 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: to you.

I’m glad to be here.

Michael Hyatt: love to start with your story. I wanna get into the loneliness thing because that’s a profound conversation that we want to 

have, but how did you get to that? Just kinda give us a little bit of your journey and how you ended up focusing on friendships.

Megan Hyatt Miller: How do you get to be a friendship expert? 

Shasta Nelson: That’s a good question and it’s much easier to answer in hindsight. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: a trained pastor, so I pastored a church and I can look back now and actually realize the reason I did that was because when I looked around at, you know, in college, that was where community was happening for, in my world at the 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: That was where like. You could impact people and do stuff together and change the world and support each other and like all those things. And I did love so much of pastoring and I also just started feeling like, wow, it’s getting to the place where I, people have to, A, not that many people are going to church anymore to get that need met.

And B, a lot of churches are getting into a situation where you have to believe what I believe in order to belong or, you know, there’s just so many other dynamics and a lot of people actually don’t feel like they belong and that that’s a safe place for belonging. So it was really in that. Space that I found myself asking the big questions though, like how, what does belong?

What does it mean to belong? And do we all have to agree on the same thing to belong? And if we want people to belong, what are the things that we should be measuring for that? And what are the expectations we have of somebody who just walks into church the first time? Should they instantly belong?

What’s, what’s their responsibility? What’s our responsibility? So it 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: really, for me, a. social experiment, like a laboratory, if you will, for me to be like, how do you bond people? How do you run small groups? How do you train people? And of course I did a lot of relationship counseling and so that was really, in hindsight, one of the best laboratories for really looking at like why people want to connect and how to do that.

I ended up leaving that role and started what was back then the very first friendship matching site. So that was kind of like, I’ve always been like five or 10 years ahead of, of the curve, which hasn’t always worked out well for me. But yeah, I mean, I was just like, I, I believe there’s more loneliness out there than we’re naming and I really, I was coaching people and I was hearing the need over and over of.

You know, both of you have this experience and masterminds, and when you’re coaching, they’re coming to you for one reason. But then you start asking them who’s supporting you or who are your friends? Or like, what are you hearing from the people around you? And I just kind of kept hearing like, well, I don’t really talk about this with other people.

Or like, well, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep. 

Shasta Nelson: I don’t really, you know, I’ve moved away and haven’t really built those friendships here. And like, you just keep hearing like. Wow. People aren’t feeling supported. They’re not confiding in people. So that really, um, put, just put me in a place where I’ve been, uh, ever since then. So I’ve been in this for 15 years in this loneliness friendship space.

Before it was an industry, before it was a big public conversation. I’ve been out there kind of feeling at times like. person in the desert being like, here ye here ye this matters. You know? But yeah, it’s been so rewarding in the last number of years to just have the research catch up, to have the, the science get clearer and clearer and just to start having more and more voices, because this really is, I mean, I’m a little biased, but the science will back me up.

This really is the biggest issue to our health, to our happiness, to our longevity. I mean, it’s

Michael Hyatt: I believe believe it. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Okay. You gotta tell us a little bit though, like not everybody knows that science, not everybody.

Shasta Nelson: Yeah.

Megan Hyatt Miller: I mean, there are people who are listening that are going, wait, what you mean? It’s not about like diet and exercise and sleeping more, all of which are important, but, but why? Why is community and relationship such a contributor to health and longevity?

Shasta Nelson: Uh, it’s, I mean, there’s so many fabulous reports right now. It’s so fun. I mean, I could give a whole one hour keynote than I do to healthcare situations and training doctors and stuff on what the science is showing right now. But really how you answer the question I. How loved and supported do I feel in my life right now tells us more about

Michael Hyatt: Hmm.

Shasta Nelson: 10 years out than any other question you can answer.

It has more to do with whether you’re smoking, whether you’re exercising, whether what you’re eating, um, you know, I mean, it’s just like even things that we think are like, well, sleep is more important than relationships. Yes. But you sleep better when you feel connected and your 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: lonely.

So it’s amazing that, and even when we think about like. Our nourishment, we absorb nutrients better when we feel connected. So 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Really. 

Shasta Nelson: when we feel lonely, when we feel disconnected, we’re basically putting our body in kind of this stress mode that for a lot of us. normal. Like we don’t actually go, like, I’m not that stressed, but we don’t feel supported.

And when we don’t feel supported, our body is working so much harder to put ourselves in protection mode. And 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: does a t an incredible amount of damage on our bodies. And so when we look at, like the Harvard study just came out where they’ve been, it’s the longest study that’s ever been done. 85 years.

They’ve been tracking the biggest health components and it’s comes down to their. Comes down to their friendships. Like that was not what they went in thinking it was gonna be. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow, that’s amazing. 

Shasta Nelson: Yeah, there’s like, and there’s the studies that show, you know, if you have healthy lifestyle habits defined by your diet and exercise and not smoking, or you have unhealthy, uh, habits by the opposite of all of those, and then if you feel supported and connected versus you feel lonely, it won’t surprise any of us.

At the longest living, best performing group are those that have healthy lifestyle habits and feel connected. But what will surprise a lot of us is the second longest living, healthiest group are those who had unhealthy lifestyle habits and felt connected. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow, 

Shasta Nelson: It ends up doing more for our health than, um, doing all the quote right things and being lonely.

It’s just so 

Megan Hyatt Miller: that’s so interesting. I believe it. And it’s like, you know, we used to say, or the, for a long time people have said that sitting is the new smoking.

Shasta Nelson: Mm. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: It’s like Loneliness.

is a new smoking. 

Shasta Nelson: fact, the studies show that feeling lonely on an ongoing basis is worse than smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So yeah, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Oh my gosh. That is cra Literally, yeah. 

Michael Hyatt: tell us a little bit about those, uh, statistics about loneliness, because I think. A lot of people are moving at the speed that they, they don’t even think they’re lonely. It’s only in 

those moments of reflection where they go, wait a second. I don’t need anybody to talk to about this, but what are the statistics?

What do we know 

today? And how has that changed since 2020, for example?

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. Such good questions. So what’s interesting is when we think of the word lonely, we often think of this like recluse or this hermit or this person who has no friends or no social skills. And so a lot of us. When we’re lonely, we don’t actually name it, which is a really big part of emotional intelligence.

Emotional intelligence is the ability to do two things. It’s accurately identify what you’re feeling and then be able to move yourself back to a place of peace. And if we don’t name the right feeling in the first place, it’s really hard to do the second part and move ourselves back to getting our needs met and back to a place of, of, of safety.

And so that loneliness is really. Important for us to actually look at and name. And it looks like some of us who don’t have anyone to confide in or we don’t really feel like anyone gets us, or we don’t feel like we have like the people who could like be our emergency calls or the people who we feel like just do life with us.

Like these are all the languages that we kind of hear these terms. It’s, it’s not just having. A social life. So what’s really fascinating is the profile of a lonely person today is often somebody who’s really busy, who is taking care of a ton of people, who has really good at loving people even, and can be in a care service position.

Like they can be the ones who are managing people in healthcare. They can be taking care of everyone else. They can be taking care of their kids and their family, like they can be the person who’s taking care of everyone else. And they’re usually amazing people skills, and they’re usually trying to do so many for so, so much, for so many people.

I mean, they’re often spread thin and at the end of the day if they, you know, if they, when we ask the question, how loved and supported? Do you feel like who’s there for you? How connected and supported do you feel? And how you answer that question is a big part of like your loneliness. So I’ll just end with this, but loneliness is just your body sending you a message that you have a need, that you’re hungry for something.

The same way I, I attribute it to like when you feel hungry for food or when you feel thirsty for a drink. is not a judgment. Nobody’s being like, how dare you get hungry? That’s just so embarrassing. Don’t tell anybody. Nobody’s being like, oh, you drank yesterday. Why do you need to drink water again today?

Like this isn’t something that we need to feel shame about your body. When it’s tired, it yawns your body. When it’s hungry, it needs food. When you’re lonely, it’s because your body is saying, I need to feel more connected in some way. And for, it’s when we avoid that, when we dismiss it, when we ignore it, when we feel shame.

Then we’re like less likely to get the need met and more likely to then, you know, have our health suffer our happiness drop and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, naming it is so important.

Megan Hyatt Miller: how do we get here? I mean, I feel like this didn’t used to be hard and now it feels hard. I mean, 

Michael Hyatt: well, just to 

add, add color to that. I had a client call me, it’s probably a month ago now, it’s after I had met you, but she said to me, she said, and this is a CEO of a very large company, and she said, I am so lonely and I don’t have any friends.

Shasta Nelson: Hmm

Michael Hyatt: But I don’t even know where to start.

Shasta Nelson: mm-Hmm.

Michael Hyatt: And so I said, why don’t you start a, um, a book club around one of Shasta’s books?

Shasta Nelson: Good idea. Good idea.

Michael Hyatt: But, but yeah, so I think I, I think it, this didn’t used to be so hard and now we’ve got people that just quite don’t know, 

how, you know, the world’s changed 

Shasta Nelson: it has. 

Michael Hyatt: how do I make friends that are outside of work especially, and I know 

you’ve got a whole book on friendship at work. Well, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: and just to like. Um, give some personal commentary.

In my own experience, I remember when I was single, I had this great group of friends. I got married a little later, well, a little later if you live in Tennessee. I was 28. You know, I was like practically, you know, geriatric, um. And, you know, I had this great group of friends and we would hang out on one of the, there was one married couple and everybody else was single.

We’d hang out on the married couple’s back porch. We’d, you know, like have some cocktails, play some music. Like it was so easy and We 

all just came over. We stayed up really late. Well then little by little everybody got married 

and as people got married, you know, no, no one’s hanging out on the back of someone’s porch till 1:00 AM when you’ve got, you know, a five-year-old or a, a baby or you know, you gotta get the kids out the door for school.

So I think like a lot, a lot of people can identify with that, that there was a time in your life, maybe it was college, maybe it was before you were married, uh, maybe it was when you worked at a certain place that, you know, you worked a lot of hours where it was just easy to connect 

with people cause you were together naturally.

And 

then life changes. And so how much of it is that? How much of it is post 2020? I feel like 

everything’s weird after covid. So.

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. That’s so many questions, but let me see

Megan Hyatt Miller: I know. Sorry, that was those 20 questions in one. 

Shasta Nelson: talk about this all day. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: How did we get here? That’s the real question.

Shasta Nelson: yeah, so for sure we see loneliness on the rise, and there’s several factors contributing to it. Um, we used to. Be much more social. We used to be out leisure activities used to mean being outside and in the last couple of decades, leisure activities with the invention of the TV and with different screens.

We are like moving inside and we’re doing things more solitarily. So we 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: a decrease in the bowling leagues. We saw a decrease in neighborhood potlucks. We saw a decrease in church attendance. And so we see like those things all coming down of places where we used to interact and have those relationships a little bit more.

There’s also a lot of factors around, uh, you know, a lot of us struggle with mental health a lot more, and so we have more social anxiety, more depression. It takes energy to go out and meet people at the end of the day. I can say is that we’ll never, ever feel close to somebody without consistency locked in.

So I’ll, we can get into this in a little bit, but there’s three requirements when we look at all the social studies of what builds for healthy relationships, whether it’s a healthy team, whether it’s a healthy marriage, whether it’s what builds trust, what makes me feel closer to some people than others.

There’s three things that we see in every single study, and one of them is consistency. So Megan, to your point, when you had kind of this built in group where you were hanging out on a regular basis when you were all the same age, where you kind of had a life stage that like allowed for that consistency to happen, it felt easier.

It’s much harder if you feel like you have to. Schedule it and if it feels like you have to book 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: weeks out and then you have to like plan childcare and like it’s, you know, there’s a whole bunch of other stuff that makes that consistency hard. What’s really worrisome to me is that it used to be that our younger generations, so you’re talking about like college and high school and how it felt easier back then.

What’s sad now is that those are our loneliest generations. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow. 

Shasta Nelson: um, so Michael, you were asking earlier about the statistics and I neglected to say so over. 60% of us are, are reporting lonely on a regular basis, 

Cross: Wow. 

Shasta Nelson: over half of us listening right now are lonely and probably a lot of us. Haven’t admitted that to ourselves.

We 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: word. We haven’t like really sat with that yet. But the truth is, we are lonely. We wish we had more fulfilling, satisfying relationships in our lives. And what’s sad is even higher than 60% are as the, as the millennials and the Gen Z. And so as we get younger now, this is the worrisome part.

’cause it used to be that that was where we had the most. Time for our friendships was high 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep. 

Shasta Nelson: college. And that then that we kind of chased the rest of our life trying to get back to that feeling. And that’s not happening now. We don’t see our, our teens and our 20 year olds feeling that connected unfortunately.

And so we 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep. 

Shasta Nelson: in suicide. We see a rise in anxiety, we see a rise in depression. And it is absolutely all connected. Absolutely all connected. 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: um, yeah. And screens. Screens are a. Big part of it, unfortunately, you know, I mean, I’d like to just say I don’t think they’re in and of themselves. They’re terrible.

But we do see mental health, uh, being impacted by that and relationships being impacted by that. And so, yeah, we have a, we have a tough situation on our hands. COVID, we are bringing that up. What’s really interesting about Covid is over 60% of us were lonely. A big study came out by Cigna, like. Two months before Covid happened.

So 

Michael Hyatt: Huh. 

Shasta Nelson: great timing for us to get a really good sense of like 61% of you of Americans are lonely on a regular basis. Then post Covid, it’s really interesting. The numbers went up a tiny bit, but what’s fascinating is it wasn’t 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: that the numbers have changed all that much, but their who in there changed a lot.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Oh wow. 

Shasta Nelson: of us came out of Covid feeling. more isolated, way more disconnected, like just way more depressed. And another quarter of us came out of it feeling like, wow, I feel so much closer to people in my life. I feel like I got tighter to people. I feel like I was in a pod. I feel like I really connected.

I felt like I invested more in being close to people. So it’s interesting. We collectively didn’t change all that but certainly that. room in there for each of us to have had a different experience for sure. But yeah, 60, 60% of us plus are not feeling connection.

Michael Hyatt: seems to be like one of the things we take for granted is that we think because we have these social connections on social media, that it’s, it’s kinda like a faux friendship.

Shasta Nelson: Mm-Hmm

Michael Hyatt: You know, it, we think we’re satisfying that social need, but

we’re really not. It’s like the junk food of relationships.

Shasta Nelson: I was just gonna say that. Yep.

Michael Hyatt: And I probably got that from you. Uh, but then the other thing too is that I think that so much of, of friendship, we kind of confuse our work relationships. With friendships and I, I don’t, they’re not mutually exclusively for sure, but I think that proximity plays such a big role in our friendships. And I noticed when I left my big, my last big corporate job, which was almost 15 years ago now, um, felt like I had all these great friends at work 

Shasta Nelson: Mm-Hmm. 

Michael Hyatt: and then I left and literally nobody called me 

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. 

Michael Hyatt: call any of them, 

and it was just kind of mm-hmm.

We just didn’t have the convenience of proximity. 

Shasta Nelson: Yep. 

Michael Hyatt: So it was like, you know, we were just kind of work friends. 

Shasta Nelson: Yes. 

Michael Hyatt: what do you, cause you’ve read a book called, and I highly recommend this, the Business of friendship making the most of our relationships where we spend the most of our time. So could you talk just a little bit about that?

Shasta Nelson: Yeah, so what you’re naming is so common, Michael. It’s so common, and in my first book, friendships don’t just happen. I actually talk about five different types of friendships because I talk about the, oh, you look at you holding it up. Gold 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah, listen, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: we’ve got both of ’em right here.

Shasta Nelson: what you’re describing as. So significant that often we can have a group of friends, what I, I call common friends in that book, which is we can feel really, really, really close to them.

But as long as the friendship is more or less dependent upon us both showing up in that container, the relationship is only going to be limited to that container. So when one of us. Quits the job or stops going to that church or moves out of the neighborhood, or our kids don’t go to the same swim class anymore.

Like as soon as that container changes, if we don’t figure out a new way to put consistency in place, we will lose those relationships. And so that’s a happens so often. I think that’s another contributing factor to our loneliness is 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: we are going through life changes so quickly. I mean, the last I saw about.

We’re moving every five years. We’re changing 

Michael Hyatt: Mm. 

Shasta Nelson: every two years. I mean, it’s, we’re going through more marriages. We are just changing things in our life so much more. So we have to start over every time. we have to learn how to do what you were saying, like find a new way of being consistent with those work friends.

You either have to go start over and kind of into those relationships, so to speak. Uh, they’re not gonna be there for you in the same way, or you have to figure out a new way of staying in touch with them. And if we don’t do that intentionally, we are going to keep increasing our loneliness because

Michael Hyatt: Hmm.

Shasta Nelson: I am finding that it takes us several years before we actually feel really close to people.

Jeffrey Hall out of University of Kansas talks about, um, how it takes 200 hours. We self-report that it takes 200 hours to 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow. I’ve read that. 

Shasta Nelson: It’s crazy. So when you think about it, like we, you know, it takes several years to make that kind of time happen for a lot 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: then if you change jobs or you move, you’re kind of like letting go of an investment.

So I would, I would encourage more of us to think about those as investments and be like, I’ve already invested, quote a hundred hours. I’d rather protect that investment. Build on that investment, 

Michael Hyatt: That’s a good frame. Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: and start trying to figure out a new pattern. Even if it means me now having to initiate time to get together or figure out a way to be in touch with each other.

It’s way, way more worth it and way easier in the long run than starting all over every single time. But yeah, what you’re describing, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: is so common and I would call those real friends, and I wouldn’t say they were fake friends or anything. I would say they had real friendship, but you never had to practice.

that 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah, 

Shasta Nelson: of the workplace. And so, um, that would’ve for them to survive, would’ve needed that.

Michael Hyatt: that’s good. I 

Megan Hyatt Miller: think that’s really helpful. It, it definitely changes how I think about moving, 

how I think about, Mm-Hmm.

Just all those changes that. They’re really easy to convince yourself of that 

are a good di you know, this is a great idea in, in real time, and not count the cost because the benefits are kind of invisible.

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: so right Megan. I think how 

Megan Hyatt Miller: You know? 

Shasta Nelson: we move because we’ll make more money or we 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Right, 

Shasta Nelson: know, so our, our kids will go to a better school for a few years or 

Megan Hyatt Miller: right. 

Shasta Nelson: and they’re all good values. They’re not bad reasons, but you’re right. We don’t sit down and say, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: what will this do to my happiness and to my health and to our relationships for me?

And 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: to do this, do it with your eyes wide open and say. I’m doing this knowing that I’m going to be walking away from a whole bunch of relationships. So it’s on me to make the decision to either identify which relationships I wanna stay in touch with and I need to put in the time to like build that.

Can they talk to me on the phone once a week while after I move? Can we get together in this way? Can I go travel and see them once a year? 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: me to stay in those relationships or it’s on me to make sure that when I land, I know that I have to start all over and do that and invest those times.

So not be surprised by it. Two years later when we’re just like, ah, I don’t have anybody.

Megan Hyatt Miller: looking at the title of your book. Friendships Don’t Just Happen, so if they Don’t Just Happen. 

Michael Hyatt: I was gonna ask you Yeah. About your triangle 

model. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Michael Hyatt: And you mentioned consistency, but could you just unpack that whole model for us? Mm-Hmm. 

Because that was so simple and so elegant and I thought, I can do this.

Shasta Nelson: Awesome. That’s what I love to hear. So in my second book, friend Intimacy, I was looking and realizing I was doing the research that most of us, when we’re lonely, it’s not because we need to go meet new people. So my first book is kind of like How to Make Friends as an adult, if you will, but I was like doing the book study the book.

Tour, excuse me. And, uh, studying and researching after that and realizing a lot of us, it’s not that we just need to go meet new people. We actually need to know what to do with the people we’ve already met. 

Michael Hyatt: Mm. 

Shasta Nelson: need to learn how to go deeper. And most of us are lonely for more depth, not just for more social

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah, that’s, that’s a good distinction. 

Shasta Nelson: intimacy is the book that I wrote where I looked at like, what is it that builds healthy relationships? And that’s where I came up with the triangle. Um, because there’s three requirements that you’ll see in every single social study, as I mentioned earlier. And those are positivity. is the base of the triangle.

And then the two arms up both sides of the triangle are consistency and vulnerability. And Michael, you heard me do 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: in the context of a work relationship. So I do that same triangle in my third book, the Business of Friendship, and that’s more with a workplace in mind. Because 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: the number one place we make friends as adults because it is the place we are most consistent.

But um, yeah, those three things have to be present and I can, um, I can kind of define those a tiny bit. Consistency, uh, I’ll start there because that was the one we were kind of picking up on earlier, and that is, it’s kind of the hours logged, it’s the shared experiences. It’s the memories we make. It’s the interaction, it’s the pattern that we put together in that friendship.

So we could all three get together and have an amazing time together. we won’t be friends unless we repeat that. Right? So we will be, have 

Michael Hyatt: Hm. 

Shasta Nelson: experience, we’ll have had a good time, but if we wanted to develop a relationship, we would have to be repetitive and we’d have to do that over and over and over and over and over and over again.

So that one kind of makes sense for all of us. That’s why friendship felt easy when we were in school. Oh, that’s why we bond with people at work. That’s why we, uh, you know, end up feeling closer to some people, even if we didn’t plan on it. It’s because something in our lives. Helped us see them on a regular basis.

And I’ll just say before I move on to the other, the other two, the only two ways to build consistency is either join or participate in something that’s consistent. So joining a book club, joining a a mastermind, participating in some kind of an association, seeing the church that you go to as an option for building friendships.

Like you have to either participate in something regularly where you’re going to build relationships or your only other option. And I hate to say it, but it’s, it’s schedule it yourself. It means you have to initiate, you have to schedule it, you have to make it happen. So, um, the friendship will never happen if we don’t get that consistency, that 

Megan Hyatt Miller: That’s helpful. Kind of demystifying. 

Michael Hyatt: Can, can you go, um, just a little bit deeper on that 

and speak to frequency? 

Like if I’m serious about a friendship, 

like, um, my wife and I just played golf with a couple that literally we’ve known for 40 years, 

Shasta Nelson: Mm 

Michael Hyatt: hardly ever see ’em. 

We live in the same town. Every time we get together, we pick up where we left off.

I mean, it’s a great relationship, but there’s not the consistency. 

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. 

Michael Hyatt: I’m wondering, ’cause we were talking about how could we build this friendship? ’cause we really would like to do that in this season, but what’s the right frequency? 

I mean, it sounds like a, 

Shasta Nelson: a, good 

Michael Hyatt: sounds like a little kid question, but,

Shasta Nelson: No, I love it and I love that you said we could pick up right where we left off because that’s, I hear that so many times and what’s so beautiful about those relationships is they do leave us feeling a sense of support. Like we know we could call them in the big 

Cross: mm-hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: we have history with them, but yeah, to your point, you’re not getting the benefit of them on a daily basis or weekly basis.

And so the consistency, so the research is showing. That we will feel closest to the people that we talk with or interact with at least once a week. Uh, so some of us will, some of us will do two or three times a week. Um, some of us, it’ll be every other week, but kind of that peak time 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: this might only, this might only work for three to five of your relationships.

You know, this isn’t something. So when we go up the triangle, uh, we’ll start that at the bottom of the triangle, uh, at the widest base. These are all the relationships in our lives and it’s. Only as we practice these three things over and over and over, that we go up the triangle. So we go up the triangle as we increase that consistency, increase our vulnerability, and increase the way we express that positivity to each other.

So at the top of the triangle, we’re not gonna have a ton of people up there, most of us. we’re lonely, it’s because we don’t have anyone up there or enough people up there. So for most of us, the answer, like I get reporters calling me all the time, we have a loneliness epidemic. How do people go make friends?

Or where should they go meet people? And I’m often saying, it’s not a matter of us not meeting enough people like we’ve all met. So many people. For most of us, it’s a matter of how to practice consistency, vulnerability, and, and positivity with the people we have met and move them up the triangle. That’s the hard part.

The meeting people is, I mean, it’s awkward. It’s, yeah, we, some places are 

Michael Hyatt: It’s so true. 

Shasta Nelson: but 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: it’s the doing, it’s the deepening of their friendship. That’s actually. Keeping most of us lonely. So it’s a beautiful question, Michael, and for you to already have vulnerability with them and already have all that history.

So you’ve had, you do still have consistency with them because you’re still interacting with them, you’re still in touch with them. Uh, so you do have it. And if you wanted to deepen that friendship, you are, you have the correct answer. It is. Frequency, it’s figuring out a way to be like, how do we see them more often?

How do we interact with them in between those times? Um, is it something where even though we’ve been couple friends, is it something where he and I can go do something and build a friendship, the two of us a little bit more, or that she and the wives can go do that? And like there’s all these different ways to kind of like increase that frequency or the ways you interact or kind of like the times you, you spend together and what you’re doing.

And so yeah, definitely that is the answer. The more you, the more you interact, the, the more you benefit from the relationship For 

Michael Hyatt: I, and I think in a world where we can’t take proximity for granted.

Shasta Nelson: Mm. Yeah.

Michael Hyatt: It’s not our next door neighbor typically. 

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. 

Michael Hyatt: it may not even be somebody at our, you know, neighborhood. But, uh, we’ve gotta be consistent. We’ve gotta be intentional. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: what happens, I had this happen with, um, a good friend. We used to walk. Twice a week together.

So Tuesdays and Thursdays, you know, we were both trying to get our exercise in. We didn’t have any competition first thing in the morning. It was like before the kids had to get out the door to school. We met early and we would walk and it was awesome. And then she ended up moving 

out of town and it’s, it’s like, feels like such a loss because 

we have so much in common.

We like each other so much. But that container, like our friendship happened in that container. 

Kids went to school together too, so we saw each other at school stuff. We were like out there at the rec center, you know, twice a week doing our walk. So if you have somebody in your life, or maybe somebody you met in a mastermind who doesn’t live in the same state or even the same country that you live in, like can you do consistency with distance?

Is that 

even possible or does it have to be people like that live within five minutes of you or

something? 

Shasta Nelson: it’s such a great clarifying question, Megan. helps create consistency. No doubt. There’s so 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep. 

Shasta Nelson: that show we’re gonna bond with the people we see most often who are closest to us, but 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep. 

Shasta Nelson: of us are going to have some of our bestest relationships be long distance. I just moved to a new house, uh, two years ago and I’m making new friends, but I will tell you all my bestest, bestest friends are long distance friends right now, and that means that one on Sunday night.

There’s five of us that get on a Zoom call every Sunday night, whoever can make it. We’re on a Zoom call. That means every Wednesday at noon, I’m talking to my friend Cher. That means that I’ve got two or three other people that I’m like always thinking about when I’m on a walk, which one can I call and talk to?

So my closest friends like I have in. Incredible intimacy and the highest level of vulnerability with them. And I may only see them a couple times a year or once a year even. And, but that, it did help that at some point we did have consistency 

Megan Hyatt Miller: sure. 

Shasta Nelson: so we 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: memories that we’ve made and have had the benefit of. 

Knowing each other in that way and 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: those experiences together. But absolutely, most of us need to learn how to do, uh, more intimacy in a, in a long distance way, because we’re moving, we’re on the move often. And again, it goes back to the point of like, why start over every single 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Okay. That’s really helpful. I think. I think that’ll be, I like that encouraging to a lot of people because it’s just, even if you don’t move or you don’t change jobs, you know, your friend might, and you, we, we don’t wanna be starting over all the time, so, 

Michael Hyatt: yeah. Agreed. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Okay. Sorry 

Michael Hyatt: talk about positivity because like I was saying, it didn’t make sense to me when I just saw it on the slide, but as you began to unpack it, I thought that’s absolutely right. That’s why that’s gotta be the foundation.

Shasta Nelson: Yeah, so positivity is not being Mrs. Positivity, it’s not being Pollyanna, it’s not being a positive person. By scientific definition here, positivity is leaving each other feeling. Positive emotions.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Ah. 

Shasta Nelson: so it’s the way we interact in a way that leaves us feeling the reward of friendship. So any of us listening to this podcast, when we think about wanting friends, not a single one of us is thinking like, oh yeah, I would just love to have more people who like make me feel like I’m never doing enough, and that I’m like always losing and like that.

They’re like, I’m, there’s a judging me like. single one of us, when we think about wanting friendships, it’s like, I wanna feel loved, I wanna have fun, I wanna laugh, I wanna feel adored, I wanna feel appreciated. I wanna like, it’s the rewards we want. It’s the good feelings we want, and we’re human animals.

Like we don’t even necessarily stop to think, but every single thing we do, we’re doing with hopes that it leaves us feeling good. And that’s true of every single person that we interact with. We are going to. Most of us unconsciously gravitate to the people who have left us feeling good about ourselves in the past.

So when we walk into a room, we’re going to be drawn to the people who have left us feeling some level of a pleasant emotion. So the reason that’s at the foundation of all relationships is that If we don’t leave each other feeling good, and by good that can mean inspired or encouraged or validated, or empathy or laughter, enjoyment.

Um, you know, just all those, any pleasant emotions. They’re all so many of them. So good. Um, if they don’t leave us feeling good. We’re not gonna wanna be consistent and interact with them on a regular basis. We’re not going to devote the time. We’re not going to get the babysitter for it. We’re not gonna be excited when girls night comes, or the guys are getting together.

We’re gonna find ourselves feeling kind of like, Ugh, I don’t know if I wanna do this because, and that’s a way of recognizing it probably hasn’t had a huge reward or a big payoff for us And vulnerability is the third requirement. We’re not gonna be vulnerable with somebody if we don’t, if they don’t leave us feeling loved and affirmed and validated and empathized with.

So it is the foundation in that, you know, and I always think of the Maya angel quote that was like, we’ll, and I’m paraphrasing badly here, but kind of like, we’ll forget what they did for us. They’ll forget what they said to us, but we won’t forget how they made us feel. 

Cross: Mm-Hmm. Yes. 

Shasta Nelson: that’s, that’s 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: So it’s, uh, it’s leaving each other feeling seen. So the way we practice this is being so much. at thinking we first interact with somebody, when we get together, being like, oh, I’m so glad I’ve been looking forward to having this lunch with you. Or like, you know, just an affirmation and telling that 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: excited.

It’s making sure when we leave we say, thank you so much for sharing all of that with me. I feel so like special that you shared that and I’m with you and cheering for you all the way. It’s just letting them know it’s, it’s taking away any doubt. Here’s the thing. Every 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: our greatest fear is the fear of rejection, which means we’re afraid of them not liking us the way we might like them.

We’re afraid of not being liked. We’re afraid of not being wanted. We’re afraid of not being loved, and we’re gonna walk away and wonder if we said the wrong thing and if we should have done it this way or done that. Anything we can say to our friends, to each other that says, you are accepted. I love you.

I see you like

Michael Hyatt: Hmm.

Shasta Nelson: cannot be underestimated because people are craving feeling. More loved and they’re gonna gravitate to the people who leave them feeling that.

Michael Hyatt: you, I just reflect on my own friendships and the people I want to hang around. 

I, you know, I don’t need more emotional vampires. 

Shasta Nelson: yeah, 

Michael Hyatt: people that drain me. 

You know what? I need people that are, that. It’s a life giving relationship.

Shasta Nelson: yes. I would be curious, Michael, when you, I love the exercise you’re doing, so when you think about them, you could probably go down the list of like. What is it about that person that I find myself excited to hang out with them? Or what is it about that person? And you could probably even name the different ways you get positivity from 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah, well 

let’s go to vulnerability. 

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. Vulnerability is the third requirement. And it’s so important because if you just have positivity and consistency, that’s what we would call a social life. Uh, it’s people that you enjoy hanging out with and you see them on a regular basis. So we’ve got a lot of poker clubs, golf clubs, golf groups, uh, book clubs, moms groups that can fulfill that definition.

But for lack of the third requirement, we’re not gonna feel close to each other. We’re not gonna feel known. We’re not gonna feel like we. That they get me, that they see me. So vulnerability is the ability to reveal ourselves in incremental ways where we feel like both people are opening up a little bit, and this is where we’re kind of learning about who each other is, how they respond to different things, what hurts their feelings, what makes them laugh, what like just kind of all the little data that we’re taking in all times about each other and kind of putting a folder in place that says, this is who this person is.

This is their personality, this is their stories. They’ve told me this is. How they respond to life. These are the, this is how he takes his coffee. This is how she does this. But it’s all the data that we’re just kind of picking up and learning about each other. And this is the one that leaves us feeling known.

Um, you know, it’s, we all say we wanna be loved, but if people just adored us, but we don’t feel like they know us, it leaves you feeling very empty. There’s a ton of celebrities, there’s a ton of people who are adored and loved, and yet they’re like, but you don’t even know me. And so it’s that knowing each other that really leaves us feeling.

You know, truly loved. And so the vulnerability is what creates that sense of meaningfulness and being 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Hmm, 

Shasta Nelson: relationship.

Megan Hyatt Miller: that makes a lot of sense. What 

Michael Hyatt: could we do to foster that? You know, because I think a lot of people get into a relationship and they’re kind of waiting for the other person to go first, 

Shasta Nelson: Mm-Hmm 

Michael Hyatt: but how can we foster vulnerability get below that surface level? Because I, I’ve had friends, you know, frankly, that have been very surfacey.

I.

Shasta Nelson: mm-Hmm.

Michael Hyatt: I’ve been frustrated ’cause it doesn’t go to a deeper level. But I kinda have a fear that, uh, or a suspicion that I’m partly responsible.

Shasta Nelson: That’s so beautiful. And men’s friendships, we’ve done such a disservice to men’s friendships. Michael, we have not given permission encouraged and modeled men’s friendships to be 

Cross: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: We have basically only told men in so many terms that it’s only safe for you to be vulnerable in a romantic relationship.

And so we have not done a really great job of. Of men to be vulnerable with each other. So of these three requirements, that is the one that leaves men most often feeling lonely. For sure. So it’s a beautiful question, and I do teach it on the triangle. So at the bottom of the triangle, our consistency is somewhat low.

So we move up that triangle as we increase our consistency. So two, should our vulnerability go up a little bit. So I’m never advocating just like. You know, go to 10 on vulnerability. Right away it’s like, so we have a little bit of consistency. If we’re getting together in this mastermind, then we get to know each other a little bit in that context, and it should feel appropriate for like the level of relationship we have.

And then if it feels good, we like, if we had positive responses, we left with positivity, then we’re gonna see them again. as we have more 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Consistent. 

Shasta Nelson: we also increase our vulnerability. And you see, we, I’m just kind of drawing with my finger that we keep going through these three things in an incremental.

Slow, safe way. So I’m never advocating that we just need to like prove ourselves and go, go vulnerable, go big or go home. It’s that you do it in a little, little steps at a time, but absolutely the things that can make the biggest difference is listening. Which is a skill that, uh, we don’t do very well at all.

And then asking questions that are more personal. It’s amazing how often, if you, like, if you, the studies where we tape record people’s conversations and like listen to them and listen back. It’s amazing how the bulk of what we talk about is like the Netflix series we’re watching and like the Olympic sports, we were like, and we’re just like talking about all these things and it’s possible to talk for hours and hours and hours and not actually.

out what’s going on in each other’s life. So one of my favorite questions that I am known to ask all my friends all the time is basically highlight low light, you know? And I change it up based upon the context, but basically like, so I haven’t seen you all summer, so I wanna make sure, like tell me one thing that’s gone really well, that’s felt really good this summer that’s made you really happy and like, what’s something else that’s been kind of hard or been stressful?

And I would love to hear that while we eat lunch or whatever. And so I’m always asking some version of like. Highlight low light. And the reason I do that one, I don’t wanna be at risk of asking about, um, how are your kids and how is that vacation? And how’s your job? And how is this, and we could talk for three hours and then you leave.

And I’m, I didn’t ask the right question about how is your health, right? And I wouldn’t have known that she’s got something big going on in her life with her health. So 

Michael Hyatt: Ooh, that’s good. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: that I would rather hand it off to my friend or to the other person to share with me what matters most to them. Uh, and so by more.

Broad questions, I hopefully will leave that space for them to share what matters most. And we don’t risk, we don’t risk time just talking about the easy things. Um, and it helps give space for kind of both ends of the spectrum. And of course, I would be willing to share those things too. And so just kind of thinking through how can we ask questions?

And Michael, in your case with other men, it’s gonna have to be something that’s modeled, you know, and it’s something that you’re, 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: can tell you, what I can tell you is that men. Crave vulnerability. As much as women, men are lonely and they want to feel known and connected, and they may not have as much practice, they may not have felt as much encouragement in it, but the need is so palpable.

And so we need way more men, uh, willing to show up and practice doing that because the need 

Michael Hyatt: mm. 

Shasta Nelson: really huge.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Powerful. 

Michael Hyatt: You know, a question I started asking, I’d love to see what you think about this, but I just start, started asking some of my friends. I said, what’s important to you in this season?

Shasta Nelson: I love that. Yeah. Yeah,

Michael Hyatt: And sometimes it’s corrective, you know, something. It’s like, well, you know, I discovered this health thing that I’ve really gotta put 

my focus on to get better.

Or, you know, it’d be, well, I’m really excited about this book I’m writing, or whatever it is. 

But it’s just, it helps you see what their priorities are and 

it’s a, it’s safe, 

Pretty safe, and then you can get to those deeper questions. 

But I love yours as well, 

Shasta Nelson: That’s a great one. That’s a great one.

 

Megan Hyatt Miller: is all so helpful. I’m just, I’m taking so many mental notes and I know that people are listening and thinking, okay, now what?

Like. Yes, I’m lonely. I get kind of the, the triangle framework of, of the ingredients that need to go into making friendships, but how do I actually do it? Like if I leave the, the listening of this podcast, maybe I’m out on a walk right now, or I’m in the car line at school, or I’m commuting to the office, what’s next?

You know, if 

I, if I wanna make this a priority, what, what’s my action plan?

Shasta Nelson: So I would say get a post-it note and write down the three to five people that you wanna prioritize. Like if you were looking six to 12 months out and you were like, who are the people that I wanna be closer to? So a lot of us are lonely, not for lack of knowing. People we’re lonely for a lack for staying in touch with too many people, or our network is so big and we’re trying to like kind of.

And a lot of this for women especially our loneliness often comes, we’re the people who are keeping all of our kids with their friends and our husbands and our family members. And we’re like staying in touch with everybody and we can be lonely for just going too many relationships. So for all of us, it’s really who are three to five people that I wish I could be closer with.

And if you don’t have three to five names, who are some people that you’ve met that you’re like, I kind of wish I were closer to them. I knew I would love to know them. Or where are places that you wanna be more consistent, that you could meet some of those people? So do you wanna get into cycling? Have you been wanting to volunteer?

Um, you know, so trying to think of like, where could you go to meet some of those people? But for a lot of us, we’ve met them and we just need to kind of prioritize them. So really getting clear of like, where is our energy going? ’cause what we wanna do now is kind of. our focus and be much more intentional in saying, these are the people I’m prioritizing when it comes to frequency.

These are the people that I’m going to make time for. So when I’m on book tour, when I’m traveling, when I’m super busy out speaking, I can’t stay in touch with all my friends, but I know who my four or five people are. That like when time is at a. Kind of push comes to shove. Those are the people that don’t get shoved, right?

So we need to like really know who our priorities are and hold ourselves accountable to that. So I haven’t talked to this person in two weeks. I said this was one of my people who has a priority. What is like, what am I doing to implement that priority? So being really clear. The second thing for those of you who are listening, who are kind of like strategic and love really being successful and having goals and all that kind of stuff.

Is, I love looking at the, the names that you have written down and ask yourself which one of the three requirements would make the biggest difference in each of those relationships? Like 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Ooh, that’s good. 

Shasta Nelson: behind? So in 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: like Michael, your example was this couple, we have good vulnerability.

We pick up right where we left off and we have a good time. I always, we enjoy being around them. But we don’t see them very often. So if we wanted 

Michael Hyatt: Yep. 

Shasta Nelson: that relationship, we know that we’d have to increase consistency. 

Michael Hyatt: Mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: us, we have people we see all the time or regularly, and we have a good time.

That was kind of the social group I was referring to earlier, but we know that in those relationships, if you wanted to go deeper, you would need to increase vulnerability. So your strategy there is gonna have to be a little different. So you’re gonna have to think, okay, when we get done playing golf, maybe I need to ask if.

So-and-so wants to like stay and have lunch in the club with me and I need to be ready to kind of ask some questions about life, right? So like what we’re doing as an activity together might not be conducive to vulnerability, but what could I do that’s kind of a add-on to that? Or, or could we ride together?

Could I call and offer to pick him up? And can we carpool together? Like how do I get time with this person that we are, where we have the space 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: that vulnerable conversation. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: That’s really good. 

Shasta Nelson: you might look and say. Wow. I am connected with them. We’ve known each other a long time. The consistency’s there, um, and the vulnerability’s there.

But like, honestly, every time they call me my, I just kind of go, Ugh, and my whole energy drops and we know that positivity is missing, right? So that’s a relationship that has become more obligatory than fun and meaningful. So it invites the question. know from the science that we have to have five positive emotions in every relationship, for every negative emotion, for it to stay healthy.

So when we look at like marriages, we start worrying when, whenever marriage goes underneath that ratio. And so the same is true of our friendships. We are gonna get annoyed with each other. We’re going to be disappointed with each other. There’s gonna be stressors. Nobody’s perfect, but we can always ask ourselves if we wanna change that positivity ratio.

A, is there anything I can do to reduce the negativity? Do I need to have a conversation? Do I need to forgive? Do I need to stop judging? Do I need to set up boundaries? Like is there something I can do to reduce the negative emotions I’m feeling and or I. always something we can do to increase the positive emotions.

You know, maybe we’ve gotten in a rut and we need to go do something fun together. Maybe we need to go to a comedy club. Maybe we need to go do something kind of crazy. Maybe I need to see if they’re up for just doing something fun this weekend. And so what can we do? Maybe we need to, maybe we’ve gotten in a bad habit of just complaining every time we’re around each other, or just maybe I don’t feel like.

I just feel like they’re talking nonstop and I don’t get a span, a space to talk, so that’s ruining my joy. Like what can I do? What can I experiment with? That kind of starts shifting the pattern that we’ve established in this relationship, and so let’s get that positivity back. So 

Michael Hyatt: Beautiful. 

Shasta Nelson: and then kind of put a strategy together based on what would make the biggest difference.

Michael Hyatt: That is really helpful. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: It’s so practical and I, I just think in my own brain, I’m going, oh, that’s not that hard. No. 

Shasta Nelson: Yay. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: that’s not rocket science. It’s not a black

box, you know. 

Michael Hyatt: I have a question about male friendships, and I 

don’t know if this is just an anecdotal observation or there’s any research behind this, but I noticed that, um, men have a hard time if they’re looking at each other 

and they’re trying to get a more intimate relationship.

And to me, when I’m in, in an extended activity like fishing or golfing, where I’m side by side,

Shasta Nelson: mm-Hmm.

Michael Hyatt: then I can ask those questions that are more vulnerable. It’s not as scary as looking into my eyes and having to ask it. Is there anything around that? Is that a male thing or is 

that just I have a unique thing.

Shasta Nelson: no, no, no. It’s a thing for sure. What is, where there’s some conversation about it is how much of that is prescriptive versus descriptive? Because men in other cultures. Enjoy looking at each other and having deep conversations 

Michael Hyatt: Yes. 

Shasta Nelson: tables and do 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Huh. 

Shasta Nelson: So we know it’s not a gender thing, but it might be a male American thing or other countries as well.

This is 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: we have conditioned you, we’ve conditioned you that you do activities side by side, and we as women have been conditioned that we do bonding face to face, but that’s just conditioning and that can change and it’s hurting your health. It’s one of my theories for why men die sooner than women, and one of my theories why men tend to remarry faster after death and divorce.

Because the only place we’ve told you it’s okay to be vulnerable is in your romantic relationships. And 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: it’s, killing you. It’s hurting you. So I would venture to say it’s going to feel a little awkward, but you’re all literally dying for it. So learning how to do it, you’re capable of it. Some like men are so, so capable of it, but you might be less practiced at it. so Naomi Wade has done research and she has a book called Deep Secrets where she actually tracks Boys Michael, where boys and girls are, have the same level of vulnerability up until about puberty. And then when it’s kind of something about we watch this thing happen where the boys up to that point, we’ll look at each other and go, I love you.

He’s my best friend. Like they talk to their best friends the same way girls do. And then something starts happening there where it’s not cool to be like a girl. And we start seeing something shift and we start seeing girls go deeper, deeper, deeper. And boys just. Doing more slapstick funny and hitting each other and just kind of competing and playing, and where you can watch the, you can watch the boys’ loneliness and you can watch the suicide rates go up and you watch this thing happen.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow. 

Shasta Nelson: So I think what’s really fascinating is that we’re, you’re capable of it, but yet I don’t think you’re getting as much practice at it in high school and 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: as the girls are getting. Um, but we need to change that. We desperately need to change that.

Michael Hyatt: Wow, this, this conditioning is really interesting. I remember being in Ethiopia about 12 years ago, and I would see adult men 

walking through the villages holding hands, 

Shasta Nelson: Yes. 

Michael Hyatt: friendship. 

Shasta Nelson: yep. 

Michael Hyatt: I was kind of taken back by that because that would be.

Difficult for a lot of traditionally raised men in this culture, uh, to do that. But it was, it just made me aware of how conditioned I am.

Shasta Nelson: It is. I mean, you go to Greece and it’s all men sitting in taverns, like at tables, just 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: and playing games. I mean, I go other places and travel and I’m like, where are the women? Like it’s men are the ones who often have the time to be sitting around the tables talking and like I take pictures of men and men’s groups all around the world just being like, wow.

’cause it’s, you’re right here. It’s, that doesn’t happen as much, but the 

Cross: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: huge. So I hope you change it.

Megan Hyatt Miller: we could continue having this conversation for hours and hours because there’s just so much here. Alas, we are at the end of our time together, but we always ask our guests three questions, 

and it’s kind of a lightning round, but they’re, they’re really deeper questions. And you know, the show is called the Double Win Show because we want people.

Not just to win at work. We want them to 

win in all nine domains of their life. That’s what we, we think of when we think of success, including community. So what is the biggest obstacle for you personally in getting that double win, winning at work, and succeeding at life? 

Michael Hyatt: That’s a vulnerable question.

That’s 

Megan Hyatt Miller: a vulnerable question. 

Shasta Nelson: it. I’m good for it. So what’s the biggest obstacle To me, winning in both places, just in 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. Yeah, 

Megan Hyatt Miller: yeah. Just in general. Yeah. Yeah. Just in general, 

Michael Hyatt: particularly in this season.

Shasta Nelson: For me, I think the biggest obstacle is I.

Being willing to be seen even when I feel like I’m failing or even when I 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: I’m not looking as great and you know, sometimes just feeling. Uh, like I, I can, I can be tempted when I’m under stress to put on a persona or put on a happy face. And 

Cross: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: making sure that I practice vulnerability.

And that’s on social media too, at inappropriate ways, in a broader way, but also with my close friends. So kind of holding myself to that vulnerability 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: matters so much.

Megan Hyatt Miller: That’s really good. Love it. Um, how do you personally know when you’ve gotten the double win? When you’re winning at work and succeeding at life?

Shasta Nelson: Hmm. Boy, it’s just such a feeling, isn’t it? It’s a, so I have a definition of success that has five different things. So it looks at my wellbeing, it looks at my lifestyle, which to me is like sitting on my deck, having spacious, slow mornings and then travel and a bunch of other things. And then it has to have impact, and it has to have financial wellbeing, and then it has to have relationships.

So 

Michael Hyatt: Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: like do a pretty often. Um, assessment of those. And when I have all five of those, like feeling like I’m a seven or above, I feel 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: So to me, just making money, if I were, if it were at risk of my health, it wouldn’t be winning. Or if I had great 

Cross: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. 

Shasta Nelson: but it was at risk of, you know, not being able to get, have the impact I want in the world.

So 

Megan Hyatt Miller: yeah, 

Shasta Nelson: me, those five, when they all come together, I feel like I’m winning.

Megan Hyatt Miller: It’s like having kind of a baseline of attentiveness to all those

areas and 

Shasta Nelson: Yeah.

Megan Hyatt Miller: they’re getting what they need.

That’s good. Yeah. That’s good. We had 

Michael Hyatt: an answer question. I know 

Megan Hyatt Miller: that’s a unique answer. 

Shasta Nelson: not willing to sacrifice

one, for the other.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yes, we are right there with you. Okay. What’s one ritual or routine that helps you do what you do?

Shasta Nelson: Mm, slow mornings. I love slow, spacious 

Michael Hyatt: Me too. 

Shasta Nelson: up, sitting on my deck, having coffee, and then my husband and I, we’ll just have, we’ll read a book together and just have big conversations and just 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: different rituals, gratitude journals, meditation stuff, and to me just having that.

Locked in. It just feels like 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah, 

Shasta Nelson: such a, such 

Megan Hyatt Miller: like the ultimate luxury. 

Shasta Nelson: Yeah, it is. 

Michael Hyatt: If 

Shasta Nelson: It is. 

Michael Hyatt: we say goodbye here, if people want to start with your work and go deeper, where should they start? You’ve got what, three books, 

right? 

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. 

Michael Hyatt: there’s your website. Uh, several videos.

Shasta Nelson: Yeah, that’s good questions. If you feel like you want new friends, then friendships don’t just happen as a great book for you. If you want deeper friends, we talked a lot about intimacy today. Most of the stuff came from the intimacy book. Um, if you’re wanting better relationships at work or you’re the leader of an organization, we’ve got 60% of the workforce lonely.

We need to address that, that would be the business of friendship. And then if you just are on my newsletter list@shastanelson.com that I have, uh, international trips, I take people on a couple times a year. I have friendship coaching circles. I have a ton of videos on 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow. 

Shasta Nelson: I have a podcast that just came out this summer that’s all about tough conversations with friends and some of the 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Ooh, 

Shasta Nelson: that happen with our friendships.

So yeah, all of that stuff would be on my website or if you sign up for the newsletter, I would always announce stuff when it’s coming out.

Michael Hyatt: Shasta nelson.com.

Awesome. I I love this idea too, of getting a circle of your friends and reading through the books, because then you kinda get everybody calibrated to the same kind of framework.

Shasta Nelson: I 

Michael Hyatt: like that, 

Shasta Nelson: I

Michael Hyatt: Do you have a common language? 

Shasta Nelson: yes. And I have on my website, under each of the books, I have written a book study guide to go with every 

Cross: Oh, that’s great. Perfect. 

Shasta Nelson: And, and not only did I do a book study guide, I did a book study guide for all of them that is a four, an option to meet four times and just talk through a few chapters at a time because.

Secretly, I’m trying to help you practice consistency and 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. 

Shasta Nelson: for interactions with each other and talk about your relationships at the same time. So trying to help 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Ah. 

Shasta Nelson: with each other while you talk about my book. So that’s all 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Excellent. 

Michael Hyatt: Fantastic. Well, well thank you so much for being with us today. Um, 

this has been a great conversation and I’m sure it won’t be the last.

Shasta Nelson: Well, it was so nice to be here, and thank you both. Seriously. I meant what I said at the beginning to put the spotlight on this subject means so much. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Hmm. I just really like her. 

Michael Hyatt: I knew you would. And in fact, when I was watching her present at the conference we attended, uh, I thought, I wish Megan were with me. Yeah. Because she would eat this up. So what were your biggest takeaways?

Megan Hyatt Miller: Well, it really confirmed to me. How important friendship is, and just personally for me, why I started a mastermind, why we started a mastermind, two masterminds, because this is tricky to figure out and, and I think a lot of us feel the need for this, especially as high achievers. And I, I, I really appreciated how simple she made it.

I, I like that she said it wasn’t primarily about meeting new people. ’cause I think that’s the part, as an introvert anyway, that’s the part that I’m like, oh gosh, me, it was like dating, like I got married so I didn’t have to date. You know? Um, and the fact that it’s, it’s really about some key ingredients, only three, not that many.

And, and from my perspective, the consistency part. Is the, the challenge Yeah. More than anything. 

Michael Hyatt: Uh, same for me too. Yeah. I, I think I was really taken aback again as I was when I heard her speak about this epidemic of loneliness. Mm-Hmm. And I’ve heard again and again in various health circles and, you know, both of us are health.

Health kind of nuts. And I’m sort of a wannabe biohacker. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: You’re more of a nut than I am. 

Michael Hyatt: Yeah. Well, I, I just realizing though that, that whether it’s nutrition or sleep or exercise or any of the things that people talk about on, on the, on the health shows that I listen to the Trump card. Mm-Hmm. Is relationships.

Yeah. If you have social connection, that trumps everything. And when she talked about that Harvard study that proves that. I just said. Yeah. I, I’m not surprised. I, I would add to it purpose maybe. Purpose, yeah. And social connection. Those are the two things that trump everything else. Mm-Hmm. And it’s not like it’s either or, but that’s gotta be the top of our priority list.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. I think this is maybe an area that we emphasize less ’cause we feel less confident. It doesn’t have metrics surrounding it, right. That we can, it, it’s not so, um, quantitative. It’s more of a qualitative thing. And so I think it’s easier to be dismissive of, um, you know, it was interesting. I was thinking about.

That statistic of 61% of people report being lonely. Mm-Hmm. And that’s been consistent for years. Even covid notwithstanding, I thought that was really interesting. Um, but I thought to myself, I have thought about people in my life that I’d like to be closer to, and I have pulled back from initiating something with them because I saw on social media them.

And I put this in air quotes, you know, groups of friends. Mm-Hmm. Like, oh, they already have, they, I’m sure they already have all the friends that they want. Now, in reality, if 61% of people are lonely, those people are not necessarily their friends. They’re not their close friends. Right. And just I think that sometimes social media makes it seem like it’s everybody but us, but it’s not.

Michael Hyatt: Well, and somebody else told me this, I, it wasn’t from Shasta, but I think it applies here. And that is, if you wanna be, if you want a best friend. Be the friend you wished you had.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Right.

Michael Hyatt: And And I think it all boils down to initiative.

Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-Hmm. 

Michael Hyatt: And I’ve often said what gets scheduled gets done. And this is really true in friendships because it’s not one of those things that if we think we’re just gonna give it our leftover time, or if we have a free night, maybe we’ll call up a friend.

But if we can schedule it, at least for me with my schedule, it’s gotta get on the calendar. Right. Or it’s not gonna get done. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep. 

Michael Hyatt: And that means I just need to prioritize. Yeah. 

Megan Hyatt Miller: Such a good conversation. 

Michael Hyatt: Okay guys, thanks so much for joining us. We look forward to, uh, another great episode next week. In the meantime, if you would do us a favor, and that is rate the Show, give us a five star rating and then also review it.

We would love that. It helps get this message of the double win out because we’re on a mission to get the message out there, not just this podcast, but the message. Thanks for listening.