SUMMER REPLAY: KEN COLEMAN: Find the Work You’re Wired To Do

Episode Transcript

Note: Transcript is AI-generated and may contain errors. Please refer to the episode audio or video for exact quotes.

[00:00:00] Megan: Hey everybody, it’s Megan Hyatt Miller here, and hey, just a reminder, The Double Win Show is taking the summer off. Hope you have great things planned for the summer, but listen, we will be back in early September with some brand new episodes that are fantastic. We can’t wait to share those with you. In the meantime, we’re gonna be sharing some of our very best episodes from the past few years.

[00:00:20] You’re not gonna wanna miss them, and I bet you haven’t listened to all of these yet, but you’re gonna want to. So here’s one of those now.

[00:00:26] Ken: Your greatness lies within your uniqueness. It’s not the other way around. We all want great, but very few people are willing to do what it takes to be great. And I think what it takes to be great is to be so completely self-aware of your unique wiring

[00:00:43] Michael: I am Michael Hyatt

[00:00:44] Megan: And I’m Megan Hyatt Miller

[00:00:45] Michael: And you’re listening to the Double Win Show.

[00:00:48] Megan: Today, we have a fantastic conversation with Ken Coleman that I think you’re gonna love.

[00:00:55] Michael: Ken’s been a longtime friend. I can’t remember where I met him. I think he was working for John Maxwell maybe 20 years ago-

[00:01:02] Megan: Wow …

[00:01:03] Michael: when I first met him, and we’ve kept up through the years. He

[00:01:05] Megan: had to have been, like, in high school then.

[00:01:07] Michael: Yeah, no kidding. Yeah. Well, I was a little bit younger, too. But he’s often referred to as America’s career coach who loves helping people find the work they’re wired to do. He’s the host of the nationally syndicated radio show, The Ken Coleman Show. Um, I’ve been a guest on it a couple of times. He’s the author of several excellent books, including From Paycheck to Purpose, great title, The Proximity Principle, which I’ve given to a lot of people, and his most recent, Find the Work You’re Wired to Do.

[00:01:34] Now, he’s the creator of the Get Clear career assessment, which we talk about in this interview, which helps people discover their talent, passion, and mission so they can put it to work in their work. And it’s literally helped hundreds of thousands identify what they do best, the work they love doing, and the results that matter deeply to them.

[00:01:53] So the last 10 years, he’s served at Ramsey Solutions. Most of you know Dave Ramsey. He’s a husband, a father with three kids, and here’s our conversation. Enjoy.

[00:02:05] Ken, welcome to the show.

[00:02:06] Ken: Glad to be with you guys. This is so fun. It’s so fun. I love the studios. Thank you.

[00:02:10] Michael: Thank you.

[00:02:10] Ken: Yeah, it’s great.

[00:02:11] Michael: We love having you here, and you live and work in Franklin.

[00:02:15] Ken: That’s right. So- I live two miles probably from right where we sit. Amazing. It’s

[00:02:19] Michael: so amazing.

[00:02:19] Ken: Yeah, love this town.

[00:02:20] Greatest small town in America. Quick plug.

[00:02:22] Megan: Yeah, but please- It is … but please don’t move here because everyone else already is. No. 100%.

[00:02:26] Ken: I totally endorse that statement. The

[00:02:27] Megan: traffic is a bit of a challenge.

[00:02:29] Ken: Yeah.

[00:02:29] Michael: Okay, as we said in the intro, uh, Ken has a new book called Find the Work You’re Wired to Do. Why did you write a book like- Yeah

[00:02:37] this? What was sort of the, uh, inciting event that led to you- Yeah … writing this? I know you’ve created an assessment- Yeah … we’re

[00:02:42] Ken: gonna talk about. Yeah. Well, you know, uh, over time, coaching people on the air, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m the, uh, work guy at Ramsey Solutions, so Dave Ramsey gave me this opportunity, and, and I’m driven by one thing- Hmm

[00:02:53] and that’s to help people discover the work that they’re wired to do. Now, I didn’t- Hmm … say it that initially, but it, it came from a drive of seeing some older men in my life as I was growing up, uh, have a type of a fall-

[00:03:06] Megan: Hmm …

[00:03:06] Ken: and then they couldn’t get back on the track. Hmm. And, and I remember that was the very first seed of all of this.

[00:03:12] I also come from a pastor’s family, so I’ve watched my mom and dad, small church, so they weren’t in it for the glitz and the glamour. It was hard serving, you know, less than 100 people. So I also grew up in an environment where I saw my mom and dad just love on people. So those were two catalytic moments that- Hmm

[00:03:31] uh, early on when I figured out, okay, I wanna go into broadcasting, but what kind of broadcasting? And it… And I tried sports and, and I love politics, but I didn’t wanna do either one of those things because I wasn’t motivated, and we’ll talk about it… a lot about that. I wasn’t motivated by the entertainment or the- Hmm

[00:03:48] informative result of those two types of media. And, and of course, I know you, Michael, from a long time ago. I remember the first time I was in a meeting with Mike Hyatt and was like, “That’s Mike Hyatt, Thomas Nelson- … and, and I work with John Maxwell.” And I was a whippersnapper, probably 28, and so just to be in that room, big publishing, you know, it was kinda like the doom, doom, doom.

[00:04:07] Everybody walks in, you know? And, and, uh, and so I was always around, you know, the John Maxwells and the Dave Ramsey, so I knew before I worked with them, and I had this desire to go into that space. I was like, “I love helping people in this space.” Hmm. Helping people see their potential- Hmm … whether it be their financial potential, what Dave does, or, or John with leadership potential.

[00:04:27] Mm-hmm. And, and you’ve modeled this, too, just your professional potential. So as I started doing that for Ramsey Solutions, and Dave just threw me to the wolves. I’m not kidding. He got me a SiriusXM show, as only Dave Ramsey can do, and he just went, “Start taking calls.” I mean, true story. No pressure. Most people don’t know that.

[00:04:44] And, and to be completely honest with you, I wasn’t very good at it-

[00:04:47] Megan: Hmm …

[00:04:48] Ken: because I’d never had to coach somebody in eight minutes. That’s, that’s hard.

[00:04:50] Megan: Yeah. Ooh.

[00:04:51] Ken: And there’s an art form to that. So as I developed over time, people calling in who weren’t happy at work- Hmm … and they weren’t happy with where they were professionally, and you know that begins to seep into your personal life.

[00:05:02] Yeah.

[00:05:02] Michael: Mm-hmm. Sure

[00:05:03] Ken: does. I began to, just through the process of digging, come up with this idea of everybody’s kinda got these three wires. Yeah. Things you’re good at, things you love to do, and results that motivate you.

[00:05:15] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:15] Ken: Like, I don’t care where you’re from. Yeah. Religion, race, creed, doesn’t matter.

[00:05:19] Everybody’s hardwired-

[00:05:21] Megan: Yeah …

[00:05:22] Ken: to want to make a difference

[00:05:25] Michael: You

[00:05:25] Ken: know,

[00:05:25] Michael: you’ve, you’ve figured out something here that’s really, I think, and it shows up in your assessment, that’s really elegant. It’s a simple framework.

[00:05:32] Ken: Yeah.

[00:05:33] Michael: And I know that it’s, it’s super easy in this space to gunk up the frameworks- Yeah … and make them so complex- Right

[00:05:39] that nobody can understand them.

[00:05:40] Ken: Yeah.

[00:05:40] Michael: But, you know, when I saw my results here, and in fact, your husband, Megan, when I shot them over to you, he saw them first, because I did a text between the three of us, and he said, “This sounds exactly right.” I

[00:05:50] Megan: love that.

[00:05:51] Ken: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, self-awareness is a superpower.

[00:05:54] Yes. Mm-hmm. You know this. I mean, you’ve helped so many people, both of you, to this day. Everything you guys do is really about self-awareness. Mm-hmm. I mean, if we really boil down professional growth or personal growth-

[00:06:03] Megan: Mm-hmm …

[00:06:04] Ken: it can only happen in an environment of self-awareness.

[00:06:07] Megan: That’s right.

[00:06:08] Ken: I- I- Outside of you being aware, strengths, weaknesses, where I’m squeezed, where I get the juice, you know, uh, you can’t truly grow.

[00:06:17] I think Maxwell said it once, i- in order to grow yourself, you gotta know yourself. Yeah. It feels like something he said. Ooh,

[00:06:22] Michael: that sounds like something he’d

[00:06:23] Ken: say. Yeah. Something… He may not have said it, maybe I just gave it to him, but, but, but that’s the idea here. And so we came up with this methodology through just the osmosis of coaching people.

[00:06:32] Wow. ‘Cause I, I would just dig. You know, I’d start with, what are you, what are you good at doing?

[00:06:36] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:37] Ken: Because when we figure out, we start with talent by the way, because when we can, when we can be aware of what we’re good at, we now are aware of our tools. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:06:43] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:44] Ken: You gotta be aware of your tools.

[00:06:46] Uh, you know, I’m not a big tool guy, but I know that I’d rather have a power saw versus the old school hand saw. Yeah. Why? Efficiency and excellence. Mm. Better cut, quicker cut. And so talent is where we start when we try to see our future. G- You’ve already been given these talents, so the clues start there.

[00:07:04] Mm. Well, I’m good at this. Mm-hmm. Whether they be soft skills or hard skills, and then we go into, okay, what do I love to do?

[00:07:10] Megan: Mm.

[00:07:11] Ken: Um, because when we, when we see where the enjoyment is-

[00:07:14] Megan: Mm-hmm …

[00:07:15] Ken: now we start to connect it to a problem. Yeah. And then that third wire is what we call mission, which is results that matter to us.

[00:07:23] Megan: Yeah.

[00:07:24] Ken: Again, now we’re starting to see what gets us out of bed in the morning.

[00:07:27] Megan: Well, I think this is the thing that’s the most distinctive about this assessment, is this idea of what gets us out of bed every morning- Yeah … what results do we care the most about. Mm. Because a lot of assessments talk about, you know, kind of how you’re naturally wired in terms of what you’re good at- Yeah

[00:07:43] and, uh, what you love to do. Yeah. But w- for all of us, whether we own a business or we’re working for somebody else who has a business- Yeah … or in a nonprofit context, we’re all hired to deliver some kind of results. That’s right. And you could be really good at something- That’s right … but you actually don’t care what happens with- Couldn’t care about the result

[00:08:01] you know? And I think we’ve all been there- Yep … at various times in our lives. So I’d love for you to talk just a little bit more- Sure … about why you included that- Yeah … and how it kind of works within your framework. Yeah.

[00:08:08] Ken: So, uh, l- just to reframe, talent is what you do best, passion is the kind of work you enjoy, and then mission are results that motivate you.

[00:08:16] So I started doing all this research on psychology. I started reading everything I could get my hands on.

[00:08:20] Michael: Hmm.

[00:08:20] Ken: And we know from all the psychology studies, there’s basically six forms of what they call intrinsic motivation.

[00:08:27] Megan: Oh.

[00:08:27] Ken: All right, fancy word.

[00:08:28] Michael: I didn’t know this.

[00:08:29] Megan: I didn’t know this either.

[00:08:29] Ken: Yeah, so this is fun.

[00:08:30] There’s extrinsic motivation- Right … and intrinsic. Fun little lesson for our leaders out there. You’ll get something from this as well Extrinsic motivation, and I’m gonna use parenting ’cause I have three teenagers right now, so I’m gonna have to think of- I also have teenagers … so you’re gonna love this. I

[00:08:43] Megan: was just thinking about my kids when you talked-

[00:08:44] Ken: Do you have boys by any chance?

[00:08:45] Megan: I do.

[00:08:45] Ken: Okay, I’m gonna pick on boys- Yeah … ’cause I’m a man. Yeah. All right. So I have two boys and a, and a girl, and boys are inherently sloppy slobs.

[00:08:52] Megan: Absolutely.

[00:08:53] Ken: Well,

[00:08:53] Michael: true fact.

[00:08:53] Ken: That’s a fact. And so my boys share a bathroom. They have their own rooms, but throughout their existence, I’ve walked up at some point and put a hazmat suit on- Right

[00:09:02] in order to function without catching some sort of communicable disease because it’s squalor. And I would get upset with the boys, and I would say something like, “If you don’t clean this bathroom or you don’t clean your room, you’re not going to do X or so you’re not gonna go out with your friends or you can’t have your friend over.”

[00:09:19] And what would they say?

[00:09:20] Megan: Uh, “Okay, I’ll do it, but begrudgingly.” But

[00:09:23] Ken: with a, yeah, “Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh.” Okay. Yeah. So, so they did it, but did they do it because they wanted to?

[00:09:28] Megan: No.

[00:09:29] Ken: They did it- Extrinsic motivation … because they had to. That’s extrinsic.

[00:09:31] Megan: It’s kinda like making them shower.

[00:09:32] Ken: 100%. You

[00:09:33] Megan: know? Because you just- Same deal

[00:09:34] I’m about to drive some boys to the- Yes … University of Tennessee football camp on Sunday. Oof. And the good news is they’re old enough that most of them have girlfriends- Right … which gets to your next point.

[00:09:44] Ken: That fixes it. And so we get to a point of intrinsic motivation is I take a shower because I want to because I don’t want my girlfriend to think that I stink.

[00:09:52] Megan: And all God’s people said

[00:09:53] Ken: amen. So, right? I’ve

[00:09:54] Megan: never been happier for a girlfriend in my life.

[00:09:56] Ken: It’s the, yeah, it’s the person that eats really clean.

[00:09:58] Megan: Yeah.

[00:09:58] Ken: Because there’s a, there’s an in- there is a intrinsic desire to be healthy. Yeah. So, so I studied this, and so the six missional results in the assessment, you’ll get one primary, and I’m looking at Mike’s right here, influence.

[00:10:12] Michael: Mm.

[00:10:13] Ken: And so what I did was is I used that research, and I took what research said were the six drivers of true motivation, and I just reworded them. And I went, I think that you can take those six intrinsic motivators and tie them to work, and so far it’s worked. Wow. And so that’s the science. It’s not me.

[00:10:31] It’s just I went to Psychology 101, and here’s what I know about work. All work creates a result.

[00:10:36] Megan: Yeah.

[00:10:36] Ken: Yep. All right? But until you align the love of the task, and so I can say all three of us… Are you a three, any of you are a three? I’m a four. You’re a four. With a three wing. You’re a three. Three. So we’ve got three…

[00:10:47] I’m a ridiculous, probably unhealthy three at times. And thank God for therapy. Yes. Yes. Amen. Amen. It’s, I’m seriously a big fan. Uh, so all three of us enjoy performing-

[00:10:56] Megan: Mm-hmm

[00:10:56] Ken: Yeah … on some level. Mm-hmm. Okay? And so you have to be able to understand that. So I look at influence, everything that Michael Hyatt does that truly motivates him- Mm-hmm

[00:11:08] has an influence piece to it, in other words, people results.

[00:11:13] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:13] Ken: You are driven to be able to help transform someone, change their trajectory. Totally. It doesn’t even matter what level. Mm. If you know that you’ve put out a piece of content- that inherently helps people change their life, you go to bed with an enormous amount of peace.

[00:11:31] Michael: It’s so true, and it’s, and it explains why I love personal coaching now-

[00:11:35] Ken: Yes …

[00:11:35] Michael: because it’s the most transformative experience. Without question. You know, books change people, and courses change people, and events change people. I’m not denying any of that, but the coaching, that’s where you get down to the real nitty-gritty.

[00:11:48] Megan: Well, we actually, just right before you got here, Ken, we were in a coaching session- Right … with two clients, one of whom is the founder, the other is the succeeding CEO, and it was such a rich conversation. Mm-hmm. I mean, we were, we were, like, invisibly high-fiving each other- Right … across the table. Well, here’s

[00:12:03] Ken: the reason.

[00:12:03] Megan: Yeah.

[00:12:04] Ken: You can see it.

[00:12:05] Michael: Yes.

[00:12:05] Ken: You and I both are blessed. You as well. We write books, but you know, the occasional comment that makes its way through Amazon doesn’t mean anything like you or you making a point in a coaching session and you see the light bulb. Yeah.

[00:12:17] Megan: Yes. It’s so rewarding.

[00:12:18] Michael: It’s influence.

[00:12:19] Ken: That’s it, and immediately- Yes

[00:12:21] you are going, “I- that’s why I’m here.” Mm-hmm.

[00:12:24] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:24] Ken: And, and so that’s the idea. So the missional part is really huge because, and I wanna tie this back to leadership, if leaders can figure out this, this methodology in their hiring-

[00:12:34] Megan: Mm-hmm …

[00:12:34] Ken: in how they promote people… We make a huge mistake in the, in the leadership world in America, where a high performer, we reward them with a promotion sometimes into the wrong seat.

[00:12:47] Yeah. But we just go, “Oh, we gotta promote them.” No, you don’t. You can pay them more.

[00:12:50] Megan: Yeah.

[00:12:51] Ken: True. But don’t take a crushing salesperson who’s unbelievable at what they do, who doesn’t, who isn’t motivated to influence people. Their result could be achievement.

[00:13:01] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:02] Ken: And most, by the way, most great salespeople, their missional result will be achievement- Mm

[00:13:05] ’cause they like scoreboard.

[00:13:06] Michael: Yeah.

[00:13:07] Ken: They wanna see a scoreboard. Yes. I need to know. I need to see my results. I don’t mind competition. Mm. And in fact, if I’m losing, I’m more motivated. They’re motivated, and there’s nothing wrong with that motivation. Keep that person in a sales role. Yeah. Don’t put them in a leadership role.

[00:13:20] That’s

[00:13:20] Michael: right.

[00:13:20] Ken: Because what’s gonna happen is you’re gonna wonder, “Why, what’s, why, what’s off?” I’m gonna tell you what’s off. You just robbed them of their natural motivation. Wow. And here’s, and here’s the other thing about leaders. You gotta understand, what you and I describe with our boys is great parenting.

[00:13:34] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:35] Ken: It is. Yeah. It’s manipulation.

[00:13:36] Megan: Yeah. We’re

[00:13:38] Ken: professionals. At its, at its purest form. Yeah. And that’s great as a parent, horrible as a leader.

[00:13:42] Megan: Yeah.

[00:13:43] Michael: Hmm.

[00:13:43] Megan: Yeah.

[00:13:44] Ken: If you are leading through manipulation as a leader, you’re not leading anybody. Mm-hmm. You’re trying to control somebody. That’s right. Wow. And so allowing a, to, to, to f- a person to see themselves with this, I think it’s a wonderful hiring tool as well.

[00:13:57] So that’s, that’s why that piece… And I added it later on. When I was first coaching, it was just talent and passion. Mm-hmm. But I realized something. The ideation of what should I do-

[00:14:06] Megan: Yeah …

[00:14:06] Ken: with my professional life, the ideas come when I know what I’m motivated by. Yeah. So I look at that influence, and I go, “Okay, great.

[00:14:13] I know that’s screaming people, people, people.”

[00:14:15] Michael: Hmm. ‘

[00:14:15] Ken: Cause there’s four types of work, and I learned this from the, uh- Uh- Pat Lencioni? What Color Is Your Parachute guy. Oh. Oh, yeah No,

[00:14:22] Michael: that guy. Okay.

[00:14:23] Ken: He’s the legend. So he divided the world of work into four areas: people work, process work, ideal work, and object or things.

[00:14:33] Hmm. Right? So you think more tactile, so I work on a car, I’m a mechanic, or maybe I invent something. Shed for an artist. Yeah. We … So you can take every job in the world, every profession, and put it in one of those four buckets. So for example, the Hyatts and, and, and, and me, we’re, we are in the people and idea space.

[00:14:48] Michael: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:14:49] Ken: We’re all about people, but we have a lot of ideas.

[00:14:51] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:52] Ken: Mm-hmm. Right? W- versus let’s say a, a, a counselor. That would be st- almost strictly people. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? You’re using some methodologies, but it’s like- Yep … you’re not sitting there coming up necessarily with new things. You’re in the moment sitting with them.

[00:15:02] We’re writing books. You’ve created some amazing products- Mm-hmm … whether it be your planner. You know, that’s an idea meeting with people. Mm-hmm. So we can take all of the Hyatt work and put it in those two buckets.

[00:15:13] Megan: Yeah.

[00:15:13] Ken: So the idea here is, is when I see influence, I go that’s people, people, people

[00:15:23] Megan: So what are the other five?

[00:15:25] Ken: We have achievement, we have influence, we have service, we have solution-

[00:15:31] Megan: Hmm …

[00:15:31] Ken: and there’s one more. There, I think the other- Let me show you.

[00:15:33] Michael: Yeah.

[00:15:34] Megan: It’s fortunate we have your book right here.

[00:15:36] Ken: Well-

[00:15:36] Megan: Hold that up for the camera.

[00:15:37] Ken: Oh, this is fun. So, uh, and I’m under pressure here. Let’s get the results.

[00:15:41] So we’ve got influence, we have achievement… Oh, creation. I missed the C in efficient. Oh, creation.

[00:15:46] Michael: Okay. That was, that was Joel’s. Yeah. So Joel, her husband, is the head of our content and product- And he’s creation. Yeah … and he’s creation.

[00:15:52] Ken: Yeah. So the A- Mm-hmm … achievement, creation, efficiency. Mm. So these are the people that are motivated by, “I love when we’ve got everything working smoothly.”

[00:16:02] Think project manager types- Mm. Yeah … administrative assistants. They want everything- Operations people … I’s dotted, T’s crossed. Thank

[00:16:09] Megan: goodness for those people.

[00:16:10] Ken: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:10] Megan: We would be a disaster without them.

[00:16:11] Ken: Yeah. And so then we get into the s- the, uh, influence, service, and then last is solution.

[00:16:16] Megan: Okay.

[00:16:17] Ken: Now my brain…

[00:16:18] I just needed two cheat codes. But-

[00:16:19] Megan: That’s right …

[00:16:20] Ken: the idea here is, is so wait a second, if I’m driven by solution, uh, then I’m always looking for another problem.

[00:16:27] Megan: Hmm.

[00:16:28] Ken: So this doesn’t pigeonhole you into any type of industry, this piece, this mission piece. Right. It just… Because you could be a leader and be driven by solution.

[00:16:39] Hmm. Well, then you should be leaving all creation to somebody else.

[00:16:42] Michael: Hmm. Well, could you be a leader and be any of those?

[00:16:45] Ken: Yes, absolutely. Wow. Because remember, this is the personal driver.

[00:16:48] Michael: Right.

[00:16:48] Ken: So for instance, how many CEOs, don’t say anything, public CEOs do we think are driven by achievement?

[00:16:54] Michael: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:16:55] Ken: I’m gonna tell you right now, I’m gonna take a guess, Elon Musk, achievement.

[00:16:58] Michael: Probably, yeah.

[00:16:59] Ken: The next big thing, colonies in Mars, right?

[00:17:02] Michael: Unbelievable.

[00:17:03] Ken: So think about that. So then you can take, uh, what Jim Collins talks about, the level five leader in Good to Great. Those guys and gals, probably service.

[00:17:12] Michael: Hmm. Hmm.

[00:17:13] Ken: You know, ’cause he talks about they have extreme humility, you know? So they may be thinking, “I wanna serve the rest of the leaders in the organization,” but they could very well be a solution type CEO. Hmm.

[00:17:23] Michael: You know what I love about this, is that- You know, I think it’s easy t- to think there’s only one kind of leader.

[00:17:30] You know? Yeah. It’s an, it’s an Enneagram- Yes … three or it’s an Enneagram eight, maybe a seven, but it’s a certain type, and we try to, to pigeonhole everybody into that.

[00:17:38] Megan: Like, it’s mostly about charisma- Yeah … having all the answers.

[00:17:41] Michael: And, and what this says is you can be a leader- Mm-hmm That’s right … with any kind of personality- That’s right

[00:17:45] or any of the other things that, that map to this. Yeah.

[00:17:47] Ken: Yeah, see, and here’s what’s fun. I’ve seen a lot of these assessments that include personality type, and I, I went and talked to a couple of world-renowned psychologists. You both know them if I mention their name. And they were like, “It’s junk.”

[00:17:59] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:59] Michael: Really?

[00:18:00] Ken: Yeah, because you can’t tie a personality to a professional role.

[00:18:04] Michael: No. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:05] Ken: And so what we’ve done here is that’s why I decided to, let’s try this psychology route. We tested it before we ever launched this, and it came back, and it was really winning.

[00:18:13] Megan: Mm.

[00:18:13] Ken: And so this is, again, what motivates you. So again, let’s say you’re a, in a leadership position.

[00:18:18] No matter what your results are, all this is telling you is what fires me up? That missional piece is what motivates me. Yeah. So if I start doing too much of stuff that doesn’t … So let’s say … Okay, let’s have some fun. I’m gonna take a guess.

[00:18:31] Michael: Okay.

[00:18:31] Ken: I don’t mind if I’m wrong. So your missional result is influence.

[00:18:35] We know that you’re driven by that.

[00:18:36] Michael: What is yours, by the way?

[00:18:37] Ken: Mine is achievement.

[00:18:39] Michael: Okay.

[00:18:39] Ken: But influence is two.

[00:18:40] Michael: Yeah.

[00:18:41] Ken: By the way, I should just mention that there’s no right or wrong answer, but as you get your entire results, we gave you your top three talents and your top three passions- Right … and we give you a primary mission, but we also let you see where you score on everything else-

[00:18:52] Michael: Hmm

[00:18:52] Ken: so that you can see anything above average, I’m working with. Anything below-

[00:18:58] Michael: I love that too …

[00:18:58] Ken: delegate, eliminate.

[00:19:00] Michael: Yeah.

[00:19:01] Ken: Mm-hmm. That’s it.

[00:19:01] Michael: You c- you can’t make that much improvement in those areas.

[00:19:03] Ken: No.

[00:19:04] Michael: So just don’t even try. Waste

[00:19:05] Ken: of time.

[00:19:06] Michael: Get

[00:19:06] Ken: different people. Maxwell said this so great. He used to say, he’d go, “

[00:19:08] Michael: Hey, if, uh, if I’m a f- four or five and I, I work really hard, I might be a seven.”

[00:19:13] He goes, “Nobody pays for sevens.”

[00:19:14] Ken: You know? That’s my version of, you know … And he’s right. So if I’m working on things that I’m average at, at best I’ll be good, but if I work on things I’m good at and things that I’m great at, I can be absolutely world-class. Mm-hmm. My unique best. That’s the key to this, and so, uh, my guess is is that- You would score low on…

[00:19:37] I think you’re very creative. I think creation is- Mm … is somewhat motivating for

[00:19:40] Michael: you. Mm-hmm. Definitely.

[00:19:41] Ken: Yeah. So I’m gonna go influence. You’re high on creation, is above the line. Um, I’m gonna say solution is really low for you.

[00:19:51] Michael: I think so. I, y- you have that on there, right there on the assessment?

[00:19:54] Ken: Well, we’ve got…

[00:19:55] Yeah, I’ve just got your top results, but let’s see where you score. You’re right. Let me flip to it here. So here you can see, and for our listener and viewer, service, achievement, and creation are above the average line. So when it comes to the missional drivers for you that don’t motivate you, is efficiency and solution.

[00:20:13] So in other words, don’t come to Michael Hyatt and say, “I need you to figure out how to make this process a lot more efficient.” Right. You’re gonna go- Yeah … brain freeze.

[00:20:20] Michael: Right.

[00:20:21] Ken: Right? Same thing with- Just shoot me … solution. “Hey, we got a big problem. There’s a real cog in the wheel here. We need you to…” Not interested.

[00:20:27] Mm-hmm. But, boy, if we come to you and say, “Hey, um, what you’re gonna be doing here is gonna be serving leaders”, you’re all in.

[00:20:33] Michael: Right.

[00:20:33] Ken: If it’s, “Hey- Uh, w- we wanna drive this podcast. We wanna drive the audience by 25% this year. We think if we do this, this, and this, it’ll do it. You in? You’re going, “Let’s go.” Why haven’t we already started?

[00:20:49] Michael: Yeah,

[00:20:49] Ken: exactly. Absolutely. Is that fair? And I’m making this up. Yeah. And then the creation piece, I mean, that’s how you come up with all these different products and, and services- Mm-hmm … that your company has done for years. And then even as a publisher- That’s true … there’s that creative element where you’re going- Yeah

[00:21:00] “Is this something we wanna create?”

[00:21:02] Michael: Yeah, exactly. Is

[00:21:02] Ken: this a book that we think we’re gonna put our stamp on? So that is, uh, very, very true to you, and that’s why this is huge. So what this creates then is if I were gonna create a product with you and I’d say, “All right, we gotta create a measurement tool,” which probably we should do this, where people look at their work, if I followed a, a high performer or a CEO around for a day and I just hung in the shadows and I would mark down a little description of all the work they did in the day, and then I’d sit and we’d go, “Did this lift you or did this drain you?”

[00:21:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:32] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:33] Ken: And that’s essentially, it would line up with this. Any work that’s efficiency-driven or solving problems drains you. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:39] Michael: Not me, totally. Is… Does this move around over time a little bit? I think

[00:21:43] Ken: it’s possible.

[00:21:44] Michael: The, the reason I say that is I don’t think service would’ve been as high as it is on there- Right

[00:21:48] years ago. Yeah. But I’m in a season of my life where my friend Ian Cron said my mission-

[00:21:52] Ken: Yes …

[00:21:53] Michael: is to grow fruit on other people’s trees.

[00:21:54] Ken: Yes.

[00:21:55] Michael: So service right now- Yes … is a real focus.

[00:21:57] Ken: Yes.

[00:21:58] Michael: But I think it probably would’ve been younger or earlier in my career influence and achievement.

[00:22:02] Ken: 100%. So the answer is yes.

[00:22:04] Michael: Okay.

[00:22:04] Ken: And when I mean it can, it just means how have you changed? ‘Cause remember, the missional result is all heart, and so is passion.

[00:22:11] Megan: Yeah.

[00:22:12] Michael: Mm.

[00:22:12] Ken: Like, it’s, it, it… The way I describe it is we’ve got three measurements in this, the three wires. Talent’s just all head knowledge. Yeah, I know I’m good at this.

[00:22:20] People have told me I’m good at it my whole life. There’s, there’s no- Mm-hmm.

[00:22:22] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:23] Ken: But what do I love to do and what motivates me, that does change. Your results will change as your heart changes. Mm.

[00:22:30] Michael: Do you think that- I love that … if you’re a young person beginning your career and, and you sort of buy into this idea that I need to be doing work that I love Do you think that’s a little bit of trial and error to figure out what you love- Yes

[00:22:42] and takes time? Or that maybe even early in your career you have to do stuff you don’t exactly love and just kind of put in your reps?

[00:22:49] Ken: Yes. I, you know, uh, I’m having fun with that, but yes, and. I, I think it’s both. I think it depends on the person. Here’s something interesting. Uh, there’s research out there that has shown that a lot of adults who make a career pivot in their, in their 30s and 40s retreat or pivot to this thing that they fantasized about when they were as early as 9 or 10 years of age.

[00:23:10] Really? Hmm. Yeah, that’s a fascinating thing. So there’s a little something- Say, “I’m gonna

[00:23:14] Michael: be an astronaut.”

[00:23:15] Ken: Yeah, right.

[00:23:16] Michael: Yeah. I’m

[00:23:16] Ken: gonna be that. Like, I wouldn’t go to five, you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, ’cause, like, th- a five-year-old sees a taxi driver and goes, “I wanna be…” You know. Right. They have no idea.

[00:23:22] But I do think there’s… I point this out because I do believe with certain people, a- and I’m saying this with a… You know, we gotta hold this loosely. I do think with certain people that they can know very early on. Mm-hmm. Uh, and in fact, we’ve created a student version of this- Oh … and we’ve tested it with high schoolers.

[00:23:38] Oh, really? And it absolutely reads their mail as well. They’re able to understand it. They don’t have any work history. But again, you take a student- Yeah … okay, so for parents listening in here.

[00:23:47] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:48] Ken: Um, your 16, 17, 18-year-old, um, they can get a lot out of an exercise like this because- Mm-hmm … they still have academic and extracurricular activities that they can draw from that, that say, “I’m good at this-

[00:24:03] Megan: Yeah

[00:24:03] Ken: and I enjoy doing this.” Mm-hmm. You know, and so back to your question of the discovery piece. Let’s say that a young- High schooler wants to, is considering nursing. Let’s say they take this and they, they score really high on service. By the way, they’ll have the huge gift of compassion. Anybody that goes into health- Mm

[00:24:22] you’ll see the result, the talent of compassion-

[00:24:25] Megan: Mm …

[00:24:25] Ken: big time up there. I’ll bet. Because they just walk around with their heart out in front and they- Mm … just wanna help people. So in that situation, if, if your daughter or son says, “Hey, nursing’s the play for me,” go, “That’s great. Here’s what I think you should do.”

[00:24:40] Mm-hmm. Uh, let’s make a list of all the types of nurses there are. Well, we got the nurse that checks you in.

[00:24:45] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:45] Ken: That’s largely administrative. Yeah. And, and some kindness and customer service.

[00:24:49] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:49] Ken: We got the nurse who’s in the operating room. That’s, that’s big time. Mm-hmm. We got the nurse in the ER.

[00:24:53] Hello, that’s chaos. Lot of different things going on in there. We got the labor and delivery nurse. Oh, that’s amazing, babies. You know, you got the NICU nurse caring for the sick little babies. And in the dark days of a parent’s life, they’re just hanging on- Mm-hmm … hoping their baby makes it. I mean, so my point is- Wow

[00:25:07] I could keep going. So what I wanna do there is, is I wanna get that young person in the seat across from somebody in all of those fields, and as they begin to ask questions, “Tell me what your day’s like. Tell me what the hardest part of your gig is.” And maybe they see their nurse cry and say, “The hardest thing is not knowing what to say to a parent who’s just-“

[00:25:25] Michael: Oh.

[00:25:26] Ken: Yeah, I, I don’t know. Yeah. But, but my point is, is as we put them in that environment, this is to your question of the exploration, exploration doesn’t have to be, you know, this I go try this for two years, and I try this. Yeah, that’s a helpful distinction. Exploration is let’s sit them in front of people who are winning in the space who will be honest with these young people and say, “Here’s the best part of my day.

[00:25:45] Here’s the worst part of my day. Here’s what I would avoid. Here’s what I think you should do.” And as that kid sits there, here’s what I know to be true. The tuning fork of their heart will either go ding, ding, ding, or the Family Feud X, and it’s that simple, and I’ve coached kids. I know that to be true. Mm.

[00:26:02] And so this is the number one challenge for parents. We feel so much cultural pressure to get our kid prepared. Is college the way? Is it trade school? We want our kids to win, and this kind of methodology, parents, all it does is it provides you and your child, or you yourself- this mirror where you can see yourself.

[00:26:18] This is who I really am. I love that. Now, what does that mean- Mm … out here? And again, we must explore, okay, do I wanna do people work, process work, idea work, or things work?

[00:26:30] Megan: You know, as you- That makes so much sense … as you were talking, I, so my kids are 23, almost 21, 16, 14, 5.

[00:26:36] Ken: Wow.

[00:26:36] Megan: So we are literally doing every stage.

[00:26:38] Ken: You really, I’m gonna pray extra for you today. Please. The 23 to 5.

[00:26:42] Megan: Please do. What a range. I know. Just say a lot, a lot

[00:26:43] Ken: of prayers. Yeah, absolutely. So our,

[00:26:44] Megan: our oldest two are out of the house. Okay. And our oldest son, who’s 23, is right smack in the middle of this, trying to figure out who he is- Yeah … what he’s made to do- Yeah

[00:26:54] what he, what he’s wired to do. Yeah. And I’m just thinking that a great exercise would be to get this book, each of us to have a copy of this book. 100%. So if you’re wondering, how do you take this assessment, you buy the book, find the work- Yeah … you’re wired to do. Yeah, it

[00:27:07] Ken: comes in the book.

[00:27:07] Megan: You got it. Yeah, it’s like it, you know, the old StrengthsFinder one where it’s- Yeah

[00:27:10] it’s in there. That’s right. You get the little code, and you redeem it. But I’m thinking, how cool would it be for him to take this assessment- Yeah … for my husband Joel and I to have taken it, and then have a family conversation- Yeah … about here’s how this self-knowledge l- looks for Dad and I in our careers.

[00:27:26] 100%. Because now it’s like- Yeah … fast-forward. Like, we’ve already, we’ve already kind of done a lot of this work, and you can see, just like you were talking about with my dad and- Yeah … the influence, how that shows up. Finn, our oldest son, I think will, would then start to make connections. Oh, well, I mean, for, for sure people is like, everything about people is him.

[00:27:42] Ken: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:42] Megan: That, that, that makes his heart come alive. Yeah. And I think he would feel a lot of permission-

[00:27:48] Ken: Yes …

[00:27:48] Megan: to be who he is- Yes … instead of somebody he’s not. Yeah. Like you said, there’s

[00:27:52] Ken: a lot of pressure-

[00:27:52] Megan: 100% … to be somebody else. But, uh, anyway, I just, I just wanna encourage you- Yeah … if you’re listening and you’re thinking, okay, how might I be able to either use this with myself, my team, or- Yeah

[00:28:01] definitely if you have young adult or teenage children. Yeah. I really think this family conversation, we did a lot of that growing up. We did a lot of things where we would take assessments together and then talk about it, and we still do.

[00:28:12] Ken: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:12] Megan: And it gives you a common language. Sure does. It really brings you closer together, and you can appreciate your distinctives, your differences- Yes

[00:28:19] um, without them kinda driving you crazy. And in this case- And here’s, here’s

[00:28:23] Ken: what kids- … a lot of clarity … need to understand, and, and adults need to hear this. Your greatness lies within your uniqueness. Mm. It’s not the other way around.

[00:28:30] Michael: Mm.

[00:28:30] Ken: Everybody’s choosing to chase great, and I love that. We all wanna root for a great team, go to a great concert, eat a great f- meal.

[00:28:37] We all want great, but very few people are willing to do what it takes to be great, and I think what it takes to be great is to be so completely self-aware of your unique wiring. Mm. And when you figure that out, everybody’s favorite toc- topic is themselves, let’s be honest, and, and so there really is wonderful, uh, confidence that comes from it.

[00:28:59] In fact, he- here- here’s what I think. I think that this assessment and the work that’s done does three things for you. Number one, it gives you clarity-

[00:29:07] Michael: Mm-hmm …

[00:29:07] Ken: of who you are- What you wanna do-

[00:29:11] Michael: Mm-hmm …

[00:29:12] Ken: why you wanna do it. Mm-hmm. You begin to go, “Oh, okay, this is why my heart may beat a little faster about this.”

[00:29:17] Mm-hmm. And then it’s, this happens, I’m like, “Ugh,” you know. Like, my brother loves to do this. I think he’s crazy, you know? Yeah. And we begin to go, “Okay.” And so clarity is first, and this is really fun. Clarity breeds confidence.

[00:29:28] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:29] Ken: Mm-hmm. And confidence breeds courage.

[00:29:31] Megan: Yeah.

[00:29:31] Michael: Yep.

[00:29:32] Ken: That’s the magic.

[00:29:33] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:33] Ken: And so if we talk about being great professional, and that’s the context by which I’m, I’m trying to help people make their mark professionally You cannot do it absent of clarity.

[00:29:45] Mm. We can’t be confident when we’re not clear. And so if a person is mid-career or they’re taking on some new challenges or whatever, or kids trying to find their path, we always wanna drive people to clarity. That’s my mission, clarity on who you are. Because once we get that, the confidence takes over to go, “Okay, I know who I am.”

[00:30:04] Mm-hmm. “I know what I wanna do, kind of why I wanna do it. Now I gotta figure out where.”

[00:30:07] Michael: Yeah.

[00:30:08] Ken: And that, that is a process. This doesn’t tell you where. No assessment can. That would be garbage, and I wouldn’t promise that. But what it does is it gives you- Mm-hmm … this job description. When I look at your, your statement, this is a purpose statement that everybody gets.

[00:30:20] Michael Hyatt: I was created to use my talents of instruction, inspection, and communication to perform my passions of leading, promoting, and creating to accomplish my mission of influence by producing change and progress. That’s a job description.

[00:30:33] Michael: It is.

[00:30:33] Megan: Yeah. Now- That’s

[00:30:34] Ken: awesome …

[00:30:34] Megan: now it’s 35,000 feet.

[00:30:36] Michael: Right.

[00:30:36] Megan: But I can go look in the

[00:30:38] Ken: world of work- Well- … and I can lay this over

[00:30:40] Megan: it and go-

[00:30:40] Ken: Right, you’re trying to

[00:30:40] Megan: match it

[00:30:41] Ken: up … does this job allow me to spend 75% of my day, this is the rubber meets the road, how do you really use this if you’re trying to pick direction? Does this thing I’m looking at allow me to spend three-fourths of my day- Mm-hmm

[00:30:53] rule of thumb, using what I do best- Mm … to do what I enjoy to produce results that matter to me? So good. That, by the way, is purpose. That’s as c- plainly as I can say it. Mm. No extra oxygen in that sentence. If I use what I do best to do what I enjoy to produce results I care about, I am a happy person- Mm

[00:31:11] and probably really healthy, and potentially very wealthy.

[00:31:15] Michael: Gosh.

[00:31:15] Megan: I love that.

[00:31:16] Michael: And, and it just gets you, I think, to the right job that’ll give you the satisfaction faster.

[00:31:22] Ken: Yes.

[00:31:23] Michael: Because, you know, I think of Finn, and, you know, as he’s trying to figure out what he wants to do with his life, and I was the same way when I was, you know, his age, but it’s just, it’s, you, you feel like you’re looking for a treasure, and y- you just gotta stumble upon it- Yeah

[00:31:36] because there’s no- Yeah … strategy, no plan.

[00:31:38] Megan: It feels like you’re waiting for lightning to strike.

[00:31:39] Michael: It’s true. But if I, but if I said to you, “It’s on this island. I can’t tell you where it’s on the island, but it’s on this island, so don’t look at all this other stuff.”

[00:31:47] Ken: Yeah.

[00:31:48] Michael: That would’ve been a huge- Would’ve been hugely

[00:31:50] shortcut …

[00:31:50] Ken: helpful. I’m gonna give it to you right now. You ready? Yeah. And I want you to use this with Finn. Okay, great. Okay? The three questions that everybody needs, and I walk them through this in the book. Okay. So once you get your results, the next thing I have you do, and I do this on the air, so I’ve done this about 10,000 times.

[00:32:03] Oh my goodness. So this is not- Literally … I’m not kidding.

[00:32:05] Michael: Yeah.

[00:32:06] Ken: They keep a log of this, and so they’re telling me we’re approaching 10,000 calls. But when someone is at this point and they go- Mm … “Okay, I see this part,” and, and, and really I do this as a cheat code when somebody hasn’t taken the assessment, I just go right to, “Who are the people you most wanna help?”

[00:32:20] Megan: Mm.

[00:32:20] Ken: And I make them answer it.

[00:32:21] Michael: Mm.

[00:32:22] Ken: Tell me the people, I want you to describe the people that if I could pay you, so forget about job title- Mm-hmm … forget about path-

[00:32:28] Michael: Mm-hmm …

[00:32:29] Ken: who are the people you most wanna help? ‘Cause by the way, that’s what everybody wants to do- Mm … is help people.

[00:32:33] Megan: Yeah.

[00:32:33] Ken: It’s just how am I helping?

[00:32:34] Yeah. Is it through idea work? Is it process work? Mm-hmm. People are always on the other end of it. Okay, so I would, I would look at Finn and go, “Who are the people right now? 23, it’s okay. Who are they today?”

[00:32:44] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:45] Ken: If you had a great salary tomorrow and you were just gonna help these type of people, who would be the people?

[00:32:50] He will begin to ideate. Mm-hmm. Now, here’s the second question: What’s the problem or desire that they have? Now, he’s already essentially identified that- Mm-hmm … but we’re going a level deeper.

[00:33:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:00] Megan: This is brilliant. You’re gonna

[00:33:01] Ken: say it

[00:33:01] Megan: explicitly now. This

[00:33:02] Ken: is, this is coaching.

[00:33:03] Megan: Yeah.

[00:33:03] Ken: So we go, who are the people you wanna help?

[00:33:04] And so I’ll give you an example. I had a lady call me on the show, uh, I don’t know, six months ago, and she said, “Ken, you’re not gonna know what to do with me.” I said, “Okay, shoot.” She goes, “I make $350,000 in pharmaceutical sales, and I’m miserable.”

[00:33:17] Michael: Hmm.

[00:33:17] Ken: Wow. And she starts laughing. And I can tell this is not a miserable lady.

[00:33:19] Michael: Yeah.

[00:33:20] Ken: But this is a lady who’s, like, just so blatantly honest. I said, “This is great.” So I s- I said, “I’m… This is gonna be easy for you.” And I said, “Who are the people you most wanna help?” She said, “Women.” I said, “Be more specific. What are the problem or desire that these women have?” Hmm. And she goes, “Women that are struggling with their health, specifically their weight and their self-esteem.”

[00:33:40] Hmm. Hmm. And I said, “Wow.” I said, “That’s, that’s powerful.” And, uh, I said, uh- How, why is that the issue? Like, why is it health? And I knew what the answer was. I just needed her to say it. She goes, “Because six months ago I lost 60 pounds and it changed my life.” Mm. And she started

[00:33:59] Megan: crying. Mm.

[00:34:00] Ken: Now, I stepped in with one little additional question, but the third and final question is, what’s the solution-

[00:34:05] Megan: Oh, yeah

[00:34:06] Ken: to that problem or desire? So I said, “What’s the solution to helping women get healthy?” She goes, “I’m great at sales. I wanna be a nutritionist, a health coach, meet these women where they are, fire them up. Instead of sell them a product, I wanna sell them a future.” I was like-

[00:34:20] Megan: Whoa. Okay then.

[00:34:23] Ken: And that’s- She changed your life in eight minutes

[00:34:24] she’s an ex- she’s an extraordinary woman. But, so those three questions for anybody, even if you never took my assessment, and I, I, ’cause I, I wanna give value to your audience. Mm. If, even if you never take this, if you just wrestle with those three questions-

[00:34:34] Megan: Okay, say them again …

[00:34:35] Ken: who are the people you most wanna help?

[00:34:37] What is the problem or desire that- Mm-hmm … you wanna help them with? ‘Cause by the way, it doesn’t have to be a problem. If you wanna make women look beautiful with their hair, that’s a desire. Mm-hmm. If you wanna s- uh, design clothing that is… It, my point is all work good results. So what is the problem or desire that you want to help that person with?

[00:34:56] And then finally, what’s the solution to that problem or desire that fires you up the most?

[00:35:01] Megan: Mm. Mm.

[00:35:01] Ken: So to give you a personal example, when I left Maxwell, I felt that I was supposed to go into broadcasting. I love sports more than just about anything, so I went that route. I got on the air and I started doing sports radio in Atlanta.

[00:35:14] No small achievement, but something was missing.

[00:35:16] Megan: Mm.

[00:35:17] Ken: And what I realized was the, I, I, I wanted to help people who were struggling with a sense of purpose- Mm … and a sense of meaning. It was a little bit of that ministry piece coming in, plus that personal experience I shared at the top. Mm-hmm. And, and, and it wasn’t helping people enjoy more about their favorite sports team.

[00:35:36] Michael: Wow.

[00:35:36] Ken: So what was off was I wasn’t getting the influence and the achievement piece of helping people. I was just entertaining, okay? So if I were to walk through that exercise back then, I didn’t have it for myself, but I eventually stumbled into it. Who are the people I most wanna help? People who are lost.

[00:35:52] Michael: Mm. A

[00:35:53] Ken: little bit off. They’re just off the path.

[00:35:55] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:56] Ken: What’s the problem? A lack of self-awareness. Mm-hmm. A lack of understanding of that true, what’s that North Star? And what’s the solution to that that most fires you up? And I was like, “Speaking, writing, coaching.”

[00:36:10] Michael: Mm.

[00:36:11] Ken: Now, this was before Dave Ramsey ever enters the picture, and I could not articulate anything that I’m doing now.

[00:36:16] And, and so I want people to understand, that’s the beginning part of ideation. Mm. The idea is the exploration, I think is as much in here and here. Mm-hmm. It is getting the head and the heart aligned. Yeah. And that’s really what I hope this tool does for people. It takes our head out of the game in the sense of we don’t overthink, ’cause we’re forced to deal with this is who we really are.

[00:36:42] Michael: We’ve talked a lot about, um, how parents can help their kids using a tool like this. Yeah. The thing I wanna talk to about is how could this help somebody who’s a business leader or a business owner- Yeah … inside of their business?

[00:36:55] Ken: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:36:56] Michael: Uh, could it be used for hiring?

[00:36:57] Ken: Yeah.

[00:36:57] Michael: Could it be used for- Yeah

[00:36:59] placing people in the right positions?

[00:37:00] Ken: It’s both. And I think let’s start with the leader first. I think you gotta check yourself on this first, you know? Mm-hmm. So if you’re taking this assessment, back to that idea of do a, do a little, uh, self-examination and then get your close team around you, maybe your personal assistant, and go, “Am I spending most of my day doing this kind of work?”

[00:37:15] Mm. So we start there.

[00:37:16] Michael: Yeah.

[00:37:16] Ken: Because you know this so well. Uh, if you’re gonna start to implement this in the organization, they won’t do what you aren’t doing.

[00:37:24] Michael: True. Good

[00:37:24] Ken: fact. And so if you start going, “Hey…” So you’re gonna have to go, “Hey, guys, uh, this is only breaking news to me.” “Okay? But I took this assessment, and I realize that, uh, I’ve been doing some stuff.

[00:37:35] A lot of the stuff I’m doing is based on a service result, and I don’t care about service at all.” “I just wanna create, create, create,” and that’s okay. Yeah. Like, I’m the creative force of the small business, and I’m getting involved in customer service stuff. Ugh, now I know why I was grumpy to you.

[00:37:50] Megan: Mm.

[00:37:51] Ken: Larry, I bit your head off the other day in a meeting.

[00:37:53] That’s what I’d like to see leaders do, is first start with them and go, “Am I-” in my sweet spot here? Am I actually o- on purpose here? Mm-hmm. Then we go to the rest of the organization and go, “Hey, here’s what we’re gonna do. Let’s start looking at this, and I, I think this is gonna help us free ourselves from stuff that may be draining us.”

[00:38:11] And we begin to delegate, we begin to eliminate, and we make sure the people are on the right seat of the bus, and then it turns out to be a really great team. You know, the great sports teams are marked by really one thing: Everybody knows their role, accepts their role, and maximizes their role. Mm. But I think the big miss in corporate America and even small business today is we have people walking around, they don’t truly know their role, ’cause something’s off.

[00:38:33] So true. They know what their job description is-

[00:38:35] Michael: Yeah …

[00:38:36] Ken: but it doesn’t feel like that’s- Mm-hmm … that’s me. And we all do work where you go, “Ah, this is-“

[00:38:40] Michael: Yeah. “…

[00:38:40] Ken: this

[00:38:41] Michael: is me.” Well, and w- and when people don’t know what they’re supposed to do and they’re not doing work that they care about, they disengage.

[00:38:47] Ken: 100%.

[00:38:47] Michael: And disengagement…

[00:38:48] In fact, we’ve got this quote from Gallup, got a

[00:38:51] Ken: quote.

[00:38:51] Michael: Yeah, 68%?

[00:38:52] Ken: Yeah. 68%. Two-thirds of

[00:38:53] Michael: workers not engaged in their work.

[00:38:54] Ken: And by the way, that number has not changed over the last decade. You can go look that up. Isn’t

[00:38:57] Megan: that interesting? Wow.

[00:38:58] Ken: I study that stuff like crazy, and that… By the way, that is not meaning that 68% of Americans hate their job.

[00:39:05] It’s 68% are essentially disengaged. The big phrase that took over about a year and a half ago was quiet quitting. Yeah. Right. In other words, I’m gonna do what I’m told. I’m gonna deliver the results. You’ll get the TPS report when you’re- … I’m supposed to put the TPS report in. But outside of that, if I see one of my coworkers struggling and I know that I can help, I’m not gonna go above and beyond and- My heart’s not in

[00:39:23] Megan: it

[00:39:23] Ken: I’m not gonna go to my leader and go, “Hey, uh, you seem, you seem a little fried. Is there anything you can shove off on me?” Like, like that’s- Mm … going above and beyond, you know, this idea of knowing your role, sh- uh, accepting your role, and maximizing your role. Great teams are made up of players who are showing up to the weight room at 5:00 AM.

[00:39:41] Mm. Team workout’s at 8:00. They’re watching film all the time. They, they… I know my job is to be a linebacker, but I’m gonna go well above and beyond, tackling and practicing. I’m gonna study film. I’m gonna help the new rookie linebacker that came in and go, “Hey, if I get hurt, you’re next man up, and I plan on coming back from an injury, so you better freaking know how to play this, and I’m gonna watch film with you.”

[00:40:01] That’s what I mean by… Like, but you don’t get that when you’re disengaged.

[00:40:05] Michael: No, you don’t.

[00:40:05] Ken: Yeah. Yeah. Engagement drives all that.

[00:40:07] Michael: We, we, uh, did the… I don’t know if you guys do this at Ramsey, but we did the Inc. Best Places to Work- Yes … survey. We do that every year. So the most recent one that came back said that we had a 93% engaged workforce.

[00:40:19] Ken: That’s amazing.

[00:40:20] Michael: And so I would say to people, if you’re a, if you’re a leader or a manager or a CEO or a business owner, imagine what would happen if you went- Mm … from a third of the people being engaged-

[00:40:31] Ken: Mm

[00:40:32] Michael: to, you know, 90% engaged, what would be possible for your business? What would be possible for your desire to scale the business or to create a business that would run less dependent upon you?

[00:40:42] Ken: Yeah. Well, we know from the Gallup data productivity and profitability are the two outputs. Hmm. When engagement goes up, of course productivity goes up.

[00:40:50] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:50] Ken: As a result of that, profitability goes up. Mm-hmm. And so as a matter of fact, I gotta introduce you to the CEO of Gallup. Great guy. He came in and, and- Love to

[00:40:58] I interviewed him about a year ago, and then he invited me to DC and I spent three hours with him ’cause I nerd out on all the Gallup data. I mean, I really study it all the time ’cause of what I do, ’cause I wanna know- Right … what’s going on. And he said this over and over again, and he… And it, and it all comes down to getting people…

[00:41:14] There’s two… Well, there’s three human needs. This is all extra and not related necessarily to this.

[00:41:19] Megan: You’re gonna hear it here and only here.

[00:41:21] Ken: Well, no, it’s in the Gallup data, but it was the largest engagement survey they ever did. 180 countries. Employees across 180 countries. Three human needs. Number one, purpose in your work.

[00:41:30] Mm. So this does matter- Yeah … to that. Mm-hmm. It… When, when people saw that, “I’m, I’m built for this.”

[00:41:35] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:35] Ken: You know? Like, this is, this is… This… I get this. And by the way, the motivational piece is more important than the other two.

[00:41:39] Megan: Yeah. I’m not

[00:41:40] Ken: surprised. All right? Uh, so purpose in their work was the number one human need.

[00:41:44] The number two human need was recognition for your unique contribution. Hmm. So, hey, Meg, I saw what you did. You pulled that client aside on a break, and I saw them change. Hmm. And then they sent us an email say… You know? Yeah. It’s, it’s a very specific-

[00:41:59] Megan: Yep …

[00:42:00] Ken: private and public call-out. Mm-hmm. I see what you’re doing.

[00:42:04] Mm-hmm. And it’s very unique to them. And then the third thing is a relationship with their leader. Hmm.

[00:42:08] Michael: Hmm.

[00:42:08] Ken: So the three human needs, meaning and purpose in work, recognition for your unique contribution, and then a relationship with your leader. Hmm. Now, the relationship with a leader is not, “Hey, let’s go grab a beer, and, uh, we’re going fishing together.”

[00:42:20] It’s a coach relationship.

[00:42:23] Megan: Mm-hmm. Hmm.

[00:42:24] Ken: And again, I’m bringing it full back to this question of how do you use this assessment? See, a coach is defined by someone who watches a player, if we use it in the athletic context, but it works in, in leadership. Mm-hmm. And I, I’ve got a player on my team, and they’re in this position.

[00:42:38] My job is to give them the training The encouragement, the equipment to actually be good in that position.

[00:42:49] Megan: Yeah.

[00:42:49] Ken: That’s the coach’s m- mandatory role. Outside of that, it is constant encouragement. “Hey, you messed up on that play. No big deal. Next play.”

[00:42:59] Megan: Mm-hmm. “

[00:42:59] Ken: We’ll look at the film later.”

[00:43:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:01] Ken: You know, it’s that constant I believe in you.

[00:43:05] That’s the transfer of belief.

[00:43:06] Megan: Yeah.

[00:43:06] Ken: And so people need that, and the w- one of the greatest ways a leader can, can absolutely use a tool like this is help somebody see themselves maybe the way they’ve never seen themselves before. Yeah. And you talk about- It’s powerful … the loyalty and the drive. If you know that this leader helped me see me, and I’ve never had anybody speak that over me, and I see this, and not only do they see it in me, they’re placing me in a position where it feels kind of easy- Mm-hmm

[00:43:35] because I’m wired for it. You do that as a leader, watch out. Watch not only the engagement, but watch the longevity increase. Mm-hmm. And the other, the other issue in the corporate world today is not just engagement, it is- Retention … turnover. Yeah. Retention. Mm-hmm. And so you wanna increase retention and have a longer life cycle.

[00:43:53] Listen, people aren’t looking for a better job today. Mm-hmm. In 2024, and this always freaks the media out when I say this, people aren’t looking for a better job. They’re looking for a better life.

[00:44:04] Megan: Yep.

[00:44:05] Ken: And you had- Amen to that … you had better start thinking about hiring a person and putting them in a position to where their life is better because of the job you put them in.

[00:44:14] Michael: Mm.

[00:44:15] Megan: Yeah.

[00:44:15] Ken: That’s a different ballgame.

[00:44:17] Michael: Totally.

[00:44:17] Megan: I- well, and talk about a competitive advantage. It’s huge.

[00:44:20] Ken: Without question. Yeah. They’re not gonna… Where are they gonna go?

[00:44:23] Megan: Right.

[00:44:24] Michael: Right.

[00:44:24] Ken: They, uh, let them, let’s let them start kicking the tires.

[00:44:26] Michael: I think, I think the biggest mistake a lot of employers make is that they think when they’re thinking about their employees, they’re thinking, “Oh, you know, to retain employees, I gotta pay them more,” and it’s all about the money.

[00:44:36] No. Employees don’t think that way. I’m not saying it’s not important, but it’s not the top thing.

[00:44:40] Ken: It’s not. In fact, the data backs you up. The data backs you up that says that people would prefer a public recognition more than they would a pay raise.

[00:44:48] Megan: Isn’t

[00:44:48] Michael: that so

[00:44:49] Megan: interesting?

[00:44:49] Ken: Really? Wow. Now, that’s shocking to people, but that’s because don’t forget we’re all little boys and little girls- Mm-hmm

[00:44:55] Michael: So

[00:44:55] Ken: true

[00:44:55] that have grown up, that wanna know, “Do you see me?”

[00:44:58] Megan: Mm-hmm. “

[00:44:59] Ken: Do you love me?”

[00:45:00] Michael: Yep.

[00:45:01] Ken: And in the work- You never lose

[00:45:01] Michael: that …

[00:45:02] Ken: never lose it. And in the work world, um, I, I think there are… If I was gonna coach, if I was gonna teach only one leadership lesson, I could teach it in less than five minutes, and this would be the only leadership lesson I would ever teach, and that is every week you better sit with your direct reports and ask them two questions: “How are you doing?”

[00:45:22] How can I help you win in your job? The first question is a very personal question. They will not answer it fully right away.

[00:45:27] Michael: Mm.

[00:45:28] Ken: You’ll have to keep that one up. They’ll give you surface answers for a while because they’re trying- Mm … to figure out what’s going on. Am I safe? What’s, what’s your angle? Am I safe?

[00:45:34] Yeah. And so over time they will begin to answer that and they’ll say, “Well, I’m struggling. My mom had a stroke.”

[00:45:39] Michael: Yeah. “

[00:45:40] Ken: And, uh, she’s gonna be okay, but it really freaked me out and I’ve, I’m struggling.” And in that moment as a leader, you gotta go, “Hey, we got you.” Yeah. “What’s on your plate right now? What do you need?”

[00:45:50] Mm-hmm. “What, what’s best for you right now?” And they’re gonna look at you like you got horns growing out of your head. But it’s in that moment you have a chance to truly lead-

[00:45:59] Megan: Mm-hmm …

[00:45:59] Ken: and go, “I’ll tell you what, uh, let’s, let’s, let me pull the team together. We’ll take this off of you. We’re gonna step in.

[00:46:06] Family matters. You go.”

[00:46:08] Megan: Mm-hmm. “

[00:46:08] Ken: You go. Keep me posted, and when your head gets good, come on back.”

[00:46:12] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:12] Ken: Now let me tell you something.

[00:46:13] Michael: Wow.

[00:46:14] Ken: From that moment on, you have built enormous trust with that one person. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that first question, how are you doing? It’s not walking by in the hallway, “How you doing?”

[00:46:24] No, no. “How you doing? You doing okay? You doing good? Great.” And if they don’t answer right away, don’t turn into Dr. Phil. It’ll come. Right? You know, ’cause then it gets creepy. You’re like, “That’s, that’s gonna take a little bit of time.” No,

[00:46:34] Michael: I mean really.

[00:46:34] Ken: How are you? Yeah, really. You’re not telling me. You know, uh, ’cause, ’cause they, they, they d- they’re not used to that.

[00:46:39] Mm-hmm. And so the second question is also important, and that is how can I help you win in your job? Now here’s the weird thing about this. Until they begin to answer the first question honestly, they’ll never really give you the answer to the second question. Mm. Mm. Because to your point, they gotta feel safe enough to go, “Hey, I’m struggling a little bit,” know that you actually care about them as a human, and then once you care about them as a human, that same person, that same person I just used as example, will look at you and go, “Yeah, I, I, I don’t have the software.

[00:47:07] The software that you gave us is, it’s just, it doesn’t work, and I, and I…” They’re still gonna be a little cautious, ’cause it’s, it’s hard to tell your boss this. It is. Yeah. But when they know you care about them, they’re gonna be willing to go, “Well, I could use an assistant. I’m dying. I, I, I can’t do the output that you’re asking me to do.”

[00:47:21] Hm. Only when they know you care about them- Yeah … will they actually trust you enough to say, “I need your help.”

[00:47:28] Michael: Man.

[00:47:29] Megan: Wow.

[00:47:29] Ken: But that’s really what’s going on in the world of work today. Mm-hmm. That’s why people leave. They leave leaders, not sometimes because of what the leader did to them, but because of what the leader didn’t do for them.

[00:47:41] Megan: Yeah.

[00:47:41] Ken: And I think if you can ask those two questions- That’s so good … on a weekly- Say that, say that again,

[00:47:44] Michael: because I think that’s-

[00:47:44] Ken: They, most people… Yeah, yeah. This is- … a

[00:47:46] Michael: big impact.

[00:47:47] Ken: Yeah, and I, this is coming from 10,000 people telling me why they’re leaving. Uh, they’re always leaving because of the leader.

[00:47:52] Michael: Hm.

[00:47:53] Ken: Always.

[00:47:54] Michael: They don’t quit a job, they quit a leader.

[00:47:55] Ken: They quit a leader. Even if it’s a great opportunity.

[00:47:58] Michael: Yep.

[00:47:59] Ken: Uh, they’re leaving a leader, and most of the time it’s not because the leader did something to them in the form of an insult or- Mm-hmm … passed them over or treat them with disrespect. Mm. But what the leader did not do for them.

[00:48:11] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:11] Megan: Wow.

[00:48:11] Ken: They, they will go where they feel cared for or they feel like there’s some potential. Remember back to the statement, people want a better life? They will stay with you longer, they will follow you to the gates of hell- Hm … if they believe that they are in a better situation in their life as a whole because they get to work with you.

[00:48:30] Megan: Wow.

[00:48:30] Ken: That’s the challenge before leaders today. So understand- That’s really good … what are you doing for your people? Well, I got news for you. Everything you’re doing for them is worthless if you’re not answering, if they’re not answering those two questions on a regular basis.

[00:48:43] Megan: I love that. I-

[00:48:43] Michael: Man, this has been so powerful.

[00:48:45] Megan: It really has. I hate that we have to wrap up because I have, like, so many more questions. I know. We’ll have to have you on again.

[00:48:50] Ken: I would love

[00:48:50] Megan: that. For sure. Thank you. Um, I think this directly relates to the idea of the double win, because if you’re not ultimately spending the majority of your time in your desire zone, it’s hard to win at work, you know?

[00:49:01] Yeah. And I think this is a great tool in this book, um, this assessment, to get clarity on what those things are in your desire zone, so. I

[00:49:10] Ken: love the desire zone, by the way.

[00:49:11] Megan: Yeah, yeah. It’s pretty, pretty great. But before-

[00:49:14] Michael: It, it really dovetails with this too.

[00:49:15] Ken: It does.

[00:49:15] Megan: Yeah.

[00:49:16] Ken: It does.

[00:49:16] Michael: Si- similar, but yours is better.

[00:49:19] Ken: No, no, no, no. No, and I think this is just a tool, but I love the way you describe the desire zone, and I would say that this will help you get there. I

[00:49:25] Megan: think so too. I do too. I think it’s a great diagnostic to help you get there.

[00:49:37] Before we are like done, done-

[00:49:39] Ken: Okay …

[00:49:39] Megan: I gotta have you answer three questions, rapid fire, like- Oh, my favorite thing … one sentence- Okay.

[00:49:44] Michael: And e- … answers And explain the double win to our, our listeners. Yes. ‘Cause I, they’re listening to the Double Win Podcast, so they probably know why they’re here.

[00:49:49] Megan: They pro- yeah.

[00:49:50] Yeah. You probably know why you’re here. But in case you just randomly searched for something and you found this podcast ’cause you were just like a huge Ken Coleman fan-

[00:49:57] Ken: Right, we know

[00:49:58] Megan: that’s what it was … the Double Win is winning at work and succeeding at life. That’s it. So we don’t want you just to succeed in-

[00:50:03] Ken: Yes

[00:50:03] Megan: the work domain. We want you to succeed- Yes … in all- Yes, yes, yes … of your life, including- Hm … you know, your relationships, money, your body, et cetera, et cetera. So first question is, what is your biggest obstacle in this season of your life to winning at work and succeeding at life?

[00:50:19] Ken: A lack of patience while completely driven by passion.

[00:50:25] It, it’s-

[00:50:26] Megan: Yeah. That’s good …

[00:50:26] Ken: it’s really hard to- Golly,

[00:50:28] Michael: that’s well said.

[00:50:29] Megan: It is.

[00:50:29] Ken: Yeah.

[00:50:29] Megan: Okay, that’s

[00:50:30] Ken: great. I’m supposed to do one sentence. Yeah, that’s- That’s it …

[00:50:31] Megan: you, you’re gonna-

[00:50:32] Michael: I get that. Yeah.

[00:50:33] Megan: You

[00:50:33] Ken: understand that.

[00:50:33] Megan: Okay. So how do you personally know that you’ve gotten the double win, that you’re winning at work and succeeding at life?

[00:50:43] Ken: When I am fulfilling the role of husband and father to the best of my ability- Yeah … and I am growing in my ability to reach people-

[00:50:57] Megan: Mm …

[00:50:58] Ken: those are the measurements.

[00:50:59] Megan: That’s great.

[00:51:00] Michael: That’s really good.

[00:51:01] Megan: And then what’s one ritual or routine that helps you do what you do?

[00:51:06] Ken: Reflection at the end of the day.

[00:51:08] Megan: Hmm.

[00:51:08] Ken: Learned this from John Maxwell. He did it with a glass of red wine, he said, in the hot tub. I do it with a cigar and a glass of ginger beer. And I reflect on where I won, where I lost, and what I need to do different tomorrow because of the win or the loss.

[00:51:23] Michael: Hmm. But what’s that look like? Are you, are you actually writing that down, or are you talking through it with your wife?

[00:51:28] Or are you just thinking? Yeah,

[00:51:28] Ken: no, it’s by myself. By myself and, and-

[00:51:31] Megan: She doesn’t like the cigars. Yeah,

[00:51:32] Ken: she loves-

[00:51:33] Megan: As, as a wife who- Right, right … uh, formerly had a husband who smoked cigars. Not, I’m not formerly a wife, I’m still a wife- Yeah … to the same husband. Yes. But the cigars are former. Just to be clear- Yes

[00:51:41] before we start rumors. Okay, good. Yeah, yeah. Now

[00:51:42] Ken: I feel sad for him. Oh, no. Yeah. But I get it. Um, no, it’s, it’s actually, it’s actually a form of meditation. Hmm. Yeah. I’m not writing it down. I’m not surprised. Um, it’s, it’s quiet and, uh, it’s toward the end. I mean, everybody’s kinda in bed, and it’s just… It’s…

[00:51:56] Not every night’s a cigar. That would be unhealthy. Every other- Good to know,

[00:51:59] Megan: because I was gonna talk to you about that.

[00:52:00] Ken: Yeah. No, but it’s, it is a quiet moment-

[00:52:03] Megan: Hmm …

[00:52:04] Ken: by myself outside, and I’m just running through the day, rewinding while it’s still fresh. That’s

[00:52:09] Megan: great.

[00:52:09] Ken: Where did I win? Where did I lose? Why, to both.

[00:52:14] And then what does that mean I need to do tomorrow? And that’s become a- So good … it’s become a really easy routine. Hmm. It’s not overwhelming. It’s just kind of in the moment, present. Um, and it helps me because I’m such an emotional guy.

[00:52:28] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:29] Ken: And as I’m grow- growing older, I’m learning the discipline of being present in my feelings.

[00:52:35] Megan: Hmm.

[00:52:36] Ken: Not letting my feelings drive the moment, but kinda- Yeah … sit back in it a little bit.

[00:52:41] Megan: Hmm.

[00:52:42] Ken: And, uh-

[00:52:42] Michael: Very healthy

[00:52:43] Megan: It’s really wise …

[00:52:44] Ken: trying. Great amount of therapy.

[00:52:46] Michael: Yeah, I- No kidding. I mean

[00:52:47] Ken: that. I mean

[00:52:47] Michael: that. Well, I think as Type III’s- I mean it … we have a really hard time tapping into our emotions because it creates unproductivity.

[00:52:54] If I have to deal with an emotion, I can’t be as productive.

[00:52:56] Ken: Yeah.

[00:52:56] Michael: So I just wanna bury it.

[00:52:58] Ken: I’m gonna confess something, ’cause I feel like I’m supposed to.

[00:53:01] Michael: Okay.

[00:53:01] Ken: Is that okay? Mm-hmm, yes. Yeah. I know we’re past time, but- That’s okay

[00:53:07] Being a three, if you’re, if you’re not careful, it’s not about arrogance, at least for me. It is about being surrounded by measurements.

[00:53:16] Megan: Yeah.

[00:53:16] Ken: Mm-hmm. And this is the world that I’ve-

[00:53:18] Michael: Yeah …

[00:53:19] Ken: asked for, I’ve created, and one of the things I struggle with, I’ll be 50 this year-

[00:53:25] Megan: Mm-hmm …

[00:53:26] Ken: and still struggling with it, is The desire to achieve and the desire to influence, if I’m not careful, I become my worst critic.

[00:53:38] Megan: Yeah.

[00:53:38] Ken: It’s not enough for me.

[00:53:40] Megan: Yep.

[00:53:40] Ken: And that’s dangerous. It is. And I’m just confessing that, ’cause it’s, whew. No, it’s- It’s gotta be about people.

[00:53:45] Megan: Yeah.

[00:53:45] Michael: It’s true for me, too.

[00:53:46] Megan: Yeah. ‘

[00:53:47] Ken: Cause if I get caught up in the numbers, and I’m not even talking about comparison. That’s part of it, but I mean just what I will do

[00:53:54] Megan: to me.

[00:53:54] You against you. Yeah.

[00:53:55] Ken: Beat the crap out of myself.

[00:53:57] Michael: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, it’s

[00:53:59] Ken: kind of a false

[00:53:59] Megan: narrative. Mm-hmm.

[00:53:59] Michael: You know, I can’t, I can’t be validated, I can’t be whole, I can’t… I mean, this is a whole other podcast.

[00:54:04] Ken: It

[00:54:04] Michael: is, it is. But, but seriously, you know, how, how we can show up in an unhealthy way, but- Ugh … I’m, I’m grate- thank you for confessing that.

[00:54:10] Ken: Well,

[00:54:10] Michael: yeah. Yeah. And, um, you know, I think I started some awareness of that about the time I was 50.

[00:54:15] Ken: Yeah.

[00:54:16] Michael: But it was, it wasn’t till I got into therapy, this is a plug for therapists-

[00:54:20] Ken: Yeah …

[00:54:20] Michael: till I got into, um, meeting with a therapist on a regular basis- Yeah … that that started to change. And my therapist said to me, you know, he’s, he said, “You know, the thing about therapy is only the healthy people come.

[00:54:31] You know, the people that, that are really, really unhealthy, they don’t wanna come, so good for you for going.”

[00:54:36] Ken: Yeah.

[00:54:36] Michael: And don’t feel like it’s an admission if you’re listening to this and thinking, “Well, I would never do therapy, because what does that say about me?” Well, it says you wanna grow.

[00:54:43] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:44] Michael: Hmm. It says you wanna be healthy.

[00:54:45] You wanna show up as a better version of yourself. It’s true. So. Yeah.

[00:54:48] Megan: That’s excellent. Well, if you’re wondering what your next step is, it’s to get this book, to take the assessment, find the work you’re wired to do. You can get it anywhere books are sold. Yeah. Anywhere else people should look to find you?

[00:55:00] Ken: Kencoleman.com. Okay. That’s where they can figure everything out.

[00:55:03] Megan: Excellent. Thank you. You can figure out your whole life, literally- … there.

[00:55:07] Michael: Thanks, buddy.

[00:55:07] Megan: Thank

[00:55:07] Michael: you. You, you’ve been everything I’d hoped. Thank you.

[00:55:12] Ken: Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate you guys. Good to be with you.

[00:55:18] Megan: Well, that was such a fun conversation. I mean, man, we have a lot in common with Ken.

[00:55:24] Michael: Well, Ken’s one of the funniest people I’ve ever met.

[00:55:26] Megan: Yeah.

[00:55:26] Michael: You know, he’s just very witty and, and just, you know, always on his toes, and I’ve always enjoyed being with him for that reason. Yeah. And by the way, you know, he really kinda got his start, uh, not only d- doing the work behind the scenes, but on stage, like as an emcee.

[00:55:39] Megan: Yeah,

[00:55:40] Michael: I remember that. And he was so fun. So Leadercast, we’ve done some things there-

[00:55:43] Megan: Yeah …

[00:55:44] Michael: uh, together as well. But why does this resonate with you?

[00:55:47] Megan: Well, I think what I appreciate about Ken, and I think this is near and dear to our heart, is that he has a high view of work. And I think that, you know, we’re living in a time in our culture where sometimes, you know, think about like the quiet quitting that was happening post-COVID- Mm-hmm

[00:56:04] some of the things that we’re seeing about burnout, engagement, all that, all that kinda stuff, which some of which we talked about in the conversation, that almost like work is the enemy and the goal of it is to do, like, as little as possible and, and, like, that’s not where your real life happens. Your real life happens outside of work, and it’s almost like work is the enemy.

[00:56:22] And that may sound funny coming from us because we always talk about the- Right … double win, winning at work and succeeding at life. Um, and really what we’re trying to do is, is correct for work being people over-indexing for work, you know, people like you guys who are high achievers, who are probably prone to working too much and neglecting other areas of your life.

[00:56:41] But it’s not because we think work is bad. In fact, we think work is inherently good, and that comes from our faith-based perspective. You know, we- Yeah … we believe that work is good and that it’s redemptive and sanctifying and fulfilling and all of those things, and Ken does, too. And so I think his assessment helps us get clearer on what our highest and best contribution is, and it really overlaps kind of with the, the freedom compass that we talk a lot about.

[00:57:09] Michael: Well, I was gonna say that. You know, the thing that I, I really resonated with, it sounds very similar to the freedom compass.

[00:57:14] Megan: Yeah.

[00:57:15] Michael: And I think the reason that we created the freedom compass, and by the way, that’s found in my book Free to Focus, but the reason we like that is because it helps you identify the specific kind of work where your passion and your, um, proficiency come together, what you love and what you’re good at, and Ken does that, too.

[00:57:35] You know, that’s where you’re gonna have the most, create the most leverage, have the most impact in the world when you’re focused on that kind of work- Yeah … and when you’re feeling, you know, like the most work/life satisfaction. But he has a slightly different model, but it basically gets at the same thing- Yeah

[00:57:48] where people can be deployed to do their best work. Mm-hmm. And not just any work, but the work that really aligns with who God made them to be.

[00:57:56] Megan: Yep. I love that, and I think he’s very practical in how he thinks about that, and I felt like he shared some really good practical solutions and applications that will, um, that really help people to put this into practice in their own lives.

[00:58:08] Michael: Yeah, and so we would just encourage you guys to go take the assessment. Uh, this will be in the show notes. It’s called the Get Clear Career Assessment, and it’s definitely worth taking, and it might be something you wanna do with your entire team and then discuss the results.

[00:58:23] Megan: I also think this is a cool thing to do if you have adult children.

[00:58:26] I haven’t done this yet with my adult children, but I think that they would really benefit from this because one of the things happening with young people, and I know this is an area of passion for Ken, is there are so many options, it’s, like, paralyzing.

[00:58:38] Michael: It is.

[00:58:39] Megan: You know, that has not always historically been true, but it is true now, and so we need things that help us get clearer- Among those dec- those options so we can make a decision about, you know, what to pursue in our life And

[00:58:49] Michael: just, and just narrow down the options And

[00:58:51] Megan: just narrow it down

[00:58:51] Michael: And this is a great mechanism for doing that

[00:58:53] Megan: Yeah.

[00:58:53] Well, thank you guys so much for listening this week. I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation with Ken Coleman, and if you have, I would love to ask you to review the show. That really helps us get this message of the double win, winning at work and succeeding at life, to more people. We want to get that message out, so if you will review the show, and if you can, give us five stars, that helps it p- helps us put it on the radar of other people like you who also want to win at work and succeed at life.

[00:59:23] So thanks so much for listening, and we’ll look forward to another great conversation next week.