44. MICHAEL BUNGAY STANIER: The Problem With Having the Answers

Episode Transcript

Note: Transcript is AI-generated and may contain errors. Please refer to the episode audio or video for exact quotes.

[00:00:00] Michael Bungay Stanier: It’s really freeing to say, look, most of the time they don’t need you to solve the problem for them. They just need a space to help them figure some stuff out for themselves.

[00:00:11] Michael Hyatt: Hi, I am Michael Hyatt.

[00:00:12] Megan Hyatt Miller: And I’m Megan Hyatt Miller,

[00:00:13] Michael Hyatt: and you’re listening to the Double Win Show.

[00:00:15] Megan Hyatt Miller: And we are so excited to share the conversation that we just had with our good friend, Michael Bunge Stainer, who is the founder of Box of Crayons, which is a company that champions curiosity led leadership.

[00:00:28] He’s the author of bestsellers, including The Coaching Habit, which we absolutely love The advice trap, how to begin and how to work with. Almost anyone. He’s known for his engaging keynote speeches. I recently watched, um, just yesterday, one, uh, that was a TEDx talk of fantastic. I go back and watch that. So good and really practical frameworks, and I would say kind of contrarian thinking.

[00:00:50] I mean, he just sees the world in a unique way. He is an advocate for making coaching and everyday leadership behavior. And by the way, this is relevant. Whether you formally coach people or formally lead or you’re a parent, or you just have people in your life that are interested in your opinion or your advice, this will apply to you.

[00:01:08] Universally applies, universally applies. He’s a former Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, and he’s committed to helping individuals and organizations flourish by shifting from advice giving to asking better questions. He lives in Toronto with his wife Marcella.

[00:01:22] Michael Hyatt: Without further ado, this is our conversation with Michael.

[00:01:28] Michael, welcome to the show.

[00:01:30] Michael Bungay Stanier: It is so nice to be in conversation with you two again. I mean, I think last time we were chatting was a year ago at, uh, Stuart McLaren’s event and uh, and we see each other regularly at our office gathering as well. But how nice to be back in a kind of podcast format with you.

[00:01:43] Michael Hyatt: It’s fantastic. So fun. I just realized this morning I was looking back and I said, when was the last time we had Michael on the show? Well, it was another incarnation of the show. Long before you were involved Megan, 2017. So, wow. When you first had released. The coaching habit or shortly thereafter. And that’s what we were talking about.

[00:02:02] Michael Bungay Stanier: That’s right.

[00:02:02] Michael Hyatt: And that book had a huge impact on me.

[00:02:05] Michael Bungay Stanier: I tell you, one of the, one of the, my favorite memories of that conversation, knowing your history and publishing, was when I told you that it had been self-published and you hadn’t realized that it had been self-published. And it felt such a coup that I’d snuck a self-published book past a person who had literally run a publishing company.

[00:02:23] And it had made a commitment I wanted to do, if I’m gonna self-publishing, and I’m gonna publish it in a way that is professional, professional self-publishing. So it was a real, a real moment of affirmation for me in many ways. Michael,

[00:02:35] Michael Hyatt: well, you do an amazing job of that. Your books absolutely don’t look self-published.

[00:02:40] In fact, they look better than most traditionally published books. Have all of your books been self-published?

[00:02:45] Michael Bungay Stanier: I had a, um, a book before the coaching habit called Do More Great Work, which was published by a company called Workman in, in New York, one of the kind of storied New York publishers. The reason the coaching habit ended up being self-published was I wrote them six versions of the coaching Habit and they turned them down.

[00:03:01] Michael Hyatt: Wow.

[00:03:02] Michael Bungay Stanier: And eventually I tried to call their bluff and I said, it’s this or nothing. And they went, uh, nothing. I was like, I was gutted because the ’cause Jim, all great work had sold, I think 80 or 90,000 copies, so a pretty solid outing.

[00:03:16] Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow.

[00:03:16] Michael Bungay Stanier: But they turned it down. And I’m forever grateful because that launched my path into self-publishing.

[00:03:21] And all the books since then had been kind of done in this hybrid publishing style with page two.

[00:03:26] Michael Hyatt: Now, did that book ever hit the New York Times Bestseller list?

[00:03:29] Michael Bungay Stanier: It didn’t, it spent one glorious week on the Wall Street Journal list as a, i I ran a, a tiny promotion and the, somehow the ebook took off and just snuck onto the, the Wall Street Journal list for a week.

[00:03:42] My ego is shallow enough. That part of me goes, I’d love to have that New York Times like metal, but honestly, it’s like the fact that it sold a million and a half copies, that’s the amazing one. That’s

[00:03:52] Megan Hyatt Miller: way better.

[00:03:52] Michael Bungay Stanier: That’s really

[00:03:53] Megan Hyatt Miller: proof that the New York Times list has nothing to do with sales. Or at least if it does.

[00:03:57] Yeah. Yeah. Nobody knows how

[00:03:58] Michael Hyatt: Well, and just to put it in perspective, I’ve, I’ve hit the New York Times bestseller list twice. Yeah. And neither of those books sold close to that number.

[00:04:06] Megan Hyatt Miller: Right.

[00:04:06] Michael Hyatt: So I would rather have the sales. Than the accolades.

[00:04:10] Megan Hyatt Miller: Well, I think especially because it’s really about the impact that that book has had.

[00:04:15] You know, when I read it the first time, which was I think back when you did the interview, so I wasn’t co-hosting with you at that time, but you were like, you have got to read this little book, like it is going to just hit you upside the head. And man did it. You know? It was so revolutionary because that was kind of at the beginning of where I was leading, I was coaching, right.

[00:04:35] And. I thought being a good leader and being a good coach meant that I had to have all the answers. And at that point I was still naive enough to think that I did, you know, like fast forward. I, I definitely don’t anymore think that that’s true. Yeah. But at that point I did. And it was such a revolutionary way of thinking about asking good questions as a way of facilitating breakthrough in people instead of having to bring some kind of genius with you, which after a while feels like some real crushing pressure, whether

[00:05:08] Michael Hyatt: it is,

[00:05:08] it’s,

[00:05:08] Megan Hyatt Miller: you know, Michael, you and I talked about at Stews, whether you’re a parent and you’re trying to coach your kids, whether you’re you a peer-to-peer relationship where you’re trying to coach in a professional capacity, or whether you are a leader and you’re, you’re leading people or coaching others, it’s so freeing to know that there is a completely different way to be with others that can help them find their own answers.

[00:05:30] Michael Bungay Stanier: That’s right. When you can stay curious a little bit longer, which is kind of the, the, the easiest definition I have for being more coach-like, just stay curious a little bit longer. It takes a burden off you, which is the sense that I have to know it all. I have to save the world. I have to be in control of everything, which is just a, it’s kind of an unbearable responsibility.

[00:05:50] You can’t actually do that, but it’s also this invitation to the person you are with to invite them to figure some stuff out for themselves, to claim agency, to learn to grow. I mean, when you ask a question. And they actually have to think about it. You’re literally creating new neural pathways in their brain, or at least they’re creating their own neural pathways, that they’re literally becoming smarter right in front of you.

[00:06:14] It’s amazing, and it’s like both freeing and in a way, having a kind of deeper impact. Things just whipping out a quick answer can do.

[00:06:21] Michael Hyatt: Part of what happens there is it can really create transformational moments. Like if you say something really clever, really smart, you have a way of saying it, it might make an impression on me for a moment.

[00:06:31] I might even write it down, but that’s different than that aha moment that is facilitated by a skilled coach who asked the right question at the right time and allows me the space, or gives me the space to come to my own conclusion. By the way, sometimes when I do this with my clients, they don’t come to the conclusion I was kinda hoping for.

[00:06:52] It’s something different entirely.

[00:06:54] Megan Hyatt Miller: Oh yeah.

[00:06:54] Michael Bungay Stanier: You know, I have come to realize, you know, in the 10 years that I’ve been really. Well, really 15 years I’ve been teaching this ’cause I, I talked about this and taught it for five years as I, as I was writing the book. There’s, just to say it for everybody listening, there is absolutely a time when the answer is the thing that is being asked for and should be given.

[00:07:13] Michael, if you’re going, Hey, where’s the coffee? I don’t want to question going, how do I feel about drinking caffeine? I just want you to tell me where the coffee is. But more deeply than an answer, much of the time people wanna feel deeply heard and deeply seen and deeply encouraged. Mm-hmm. And your answer often means they feel less seen and less heard and less encouraged.

[00:07:35] Um, it’s counterintuitive. We’re so wired to try and be helpful and we have do it ’cause we have a good heart. But if you’re in real service to the other person, if you really think what they want is to be seen and heard and encouraged, sometimes asking a question and getting out of their way can be the most generous thing to do.

[00:07:52] Michael Hyatt: Okay. I think it’s important. That we dive a little bit deeper into this content.

[00:07:56] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah,

[00:07:56] Michael Hyatt: because I’m, I’m sort of presuming that the audience has already read this book. Yeah. And we’re just talking about how we’ve applied it. If

[00:08:01] Megan Hyatt Miller: you haven’t, now is the time to get the 10th anniversary edition. So

[00:08:05] Michael Hyatt: yeah, the 10th anniversary edition will be coming out shortly.

[00:08:08] Michael Bungay Stanier: Much. Yeah.

[00:08:09] Michael Hyatt: Yeah. So just kind of give us the premise of the book and how the book is structured. Run

[00:08:13] Megan Hyatt Miller: and tell. Yeah. I was gonna say, tell us what the questions are.

[00:08:15] Michael Bungay Stanier: The drive to write this book was, I’m like, I’m gonna try and un weird coaching for normal people because I, I had trained as a coach and I really believed in the, the power of this kind of technology, but I couldn’t stand how much kind of woowoo ness and black B mystery.

[00:08:32] I mean, I’m, this is a parody, but kind of incense lighting, kaf Dan wearing kind of stuff that came with it. And I really wanted to say, look, for people who interact with other humans, this gift of staying curious can be really powerful. But I’m gonna try and write a book that makes it so people go, oh, well if this is coaching, I think I could give that a go.

[00:08:53] And after many, many, many, many drafts, I brought it down to say, look, there are seven good questions. And if you know these seven questions and you ask them a little more often than you’re doing right now, that’s gonna be really helpful a lot of the time. So I’ll go through them really quickly and we can decide to pursue one or two of them, if that’s useful.

[00:09:11] So the opening question is, what’s on your mind? And what that does is it says, Hey look, let’s get on with it. Let’s get into something juicy. Let’s talk about something that really matters. One of the things that can kill A-A-A-A-A coaching opportunity is small talk. You know, we kind of do the banter about the weather and about the sport and, you know, politics if you’re feeling particularly brave or whatever the food.

[00:09:36] But if you’re like, great, look. Hey, what’s going on? Whatcha you up to what’s on your mind? That’s, uh, an invitation to say, tell me what you’re excited about or interested in, or anxious about. Then the second question, I call that the Kickstarter question. Then there’s the focus question because, and this really comes with an insight that, look, if you’re trying to help people figure some stuff out, the most powerful thing you can do is help them figure out what the actual problem is because, and this is really annoying.

[00:10:03] The first thing they tell you won’t be the actual thing. Hundred percent. It’ll just be the first thing. And we are so wired to try and be helpful that we get seduced by the first answer all the time. So the question that really helps with this is what’s the real challenge here for you? Of all the seven questions, that’s the one which is kind of most specifically written.

[00:10:22] ’cause you could ask, what’s the challenge here? And that’s okay. But if you’ve asked them what’s on your mind, you’re likely to get a, a kind of re repeat of what you’ve already heard. If you go, what’s the real challenge here? You can already feel how more powerful that is. ’cause it says, look, I know there’s a bunch of things.

[00:10:37] What do you think the real challenge is? And then when you go, what’s the real challenge here for you? Suddenly they’re talking about themselves and the mess rather than just the mess itself. And that can make a big difference. So that’s the focus question. The third question, and this is a question I typically say is the best coaching question in the world.

[00:10:54] ’cause I like hyperbole and a bit of a kind of melodrama. And I think it is simply this. And what else and what else? And if you’re listening to this and you’re like, I’ve never heard of these questions before, and you’re just looking for one question to take, this is the question to take. And what else?

[00:11:11] Because it says their first answer is never their only answer. And it’s really their best answer. And what, and what else does is two things. It holds open the space for curiosity between you and that other person. I mean, what’s amazing is they don’t even hear you say it. Most of the time. They just hear you not interrupting them, encouraging them to say more.

[00:11:32] And secondly, it helps you tame your own advice monster. We might talk about the advice monster a bit later on, that kind of desire to jump in and, and fix things and solve things. So that’s the third question of seven. The fourth question is the strategy question, which is, if you’re gonna say yes to this, what must you say no to?

[00:11:51] Megan Hyatt Miller: Hmm.

[00:11:52] Michael Bungay Stanier: Now, I don’t always ask this question, but it’s one of the great questions of life.

[00:11:57] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep.

[00:11:57] Michael Bungay Stanier: Because

[00:11:58] Michael Hyatt: it is

[00:11:58] Michael Bungay Stanier: one of the, the great moments of claiming adulthood. Is being clear on what you wanna say yes to and knowing that inevitably you have to say no to things to get that. And by things I really mean people, it’s like one of the great gifts if you can actually get better at saying no.

[00:12:19] And what this does is it just surfaces the choice that you might be making because almost certainly nobody has any more room for just more yeses. Everybody’s full, full of life, full of whatever you think your life might be. So that’s the strategy question. If I’m gonna say yes to this, what must I say no to?

[00:12:37] The fifth question is the lazy question. It’s not gonna sound lazy when I say it, but I’ll explain why I’ve given it this kind of paradoxical ti deal. The lazy question is, how can I help?

[00:12:49] Megan Hyatt Miller: Hmm?

[00:12:50] Michael Bungay Stanier: How can I help? It doesn’t sound lazy, does it? It sounds like you’re like, gimme some work, but actually, how can I help?

[00:12:57] Or how can I be helpful or how can I be most useful? Here is a way of you slowing down your rush to jump in and fix it and solve it and take it on and, and do the like.

[00:13:07] Megan Hyatt Miller: It’s like the breaks.

[00:13:09] Michael Bungay Stanier: It’s like the breaks. Exactly. And it stops you assuming you already know what they need from you, which we do all the time.

[00:13:16] They’re like, I know exactly how I’m gonna help you. You’ve been talking to me for seven seconds. I’ve already figured it all out. And it actually forces them to understand what they want from you as well. ’cause often they don’t even know themselves. And the real liberating insight around this question is when they tell you what they want, if they, when they tell you how you can help.

[00:13:36] You don’t have to say yes to it. You can say no. You can say, maybe you can say not this, but that. And you can say yes to it if you want. Now I muddled the order up ’cause that’s actually the sixth question. The question that comes before that is, what do you want? And boy, that’s a good question. And boy, it’s a miserable question in some ways.

[00:13:55] I call it the foundation question because it’s the question that once you understand what you want, it puts your feet on solid ground so that you can actually take a step forward. You can actually act on what you want. It’s become one of the three questions that I journal on every morning. I had three questions.

[00:14:14] What? What am I noticing? What do I want? And what’s the one thing? And I’ve just found that if every morning I check in with what I want, I just get this nagging clarity of the stuff that I should be acting on and the stuff that’s not working for me. So what do you want? Then there’s, how can I help? And then finally, question number seven is the learning question.

[00:14:36] And the insight here is people do not learn when you tell them stuff. This is very annoying if you’re in the business of Michael and Michael and Meghan, which is like, we are all in the business of telling you stuff, but when you tell people stuff, it goes in one ear and out the other pretty quickly.

[00:14:53] Just think of all the advice you’ve been given in your entire life and how much of it you’ve utterly forgotten instantly.

[00:14:59] Michael Hyatt: Most of it.

[00:15:00] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah, exactly. So the way people learn is when they have a chance to reflect on what just happened and to extract the learning for themselves called double loop learning.

[00:15:10] So this question, the learning question is, what was most useful or most valuable for you? And it allows them to kinda step back and name for themselves what they’re actually taking from that. And when they do that, they fire new neural pathways in their brain.

[00:15:24] Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow.

[00:15:24] Michael Bungay Stanier: So there’s a, there’s a whistle stop tour of the seven questions.

[00:15:27] Megan Hyatt Miller: What

[00:15:27] Michael Hyatt: outstanding,

[00:15:28] Megan Hyatt Miller: what a fantastic list. You know, as you were talking Michael, I couldn’t help but feel in my, in my physical body, this like anxiety of imagining how much restraint I would have to exercise to make it all the way through. Like I’m imagining an hour long coaching session with a client or an all day and make it through those seven questions.

[00:15:48] And so my million dollar question to you is how do you make yourself be quiet when your, that advice monster is popping up and you’re thinking all the while of, man, I’ve been right there too and I know exactly what to do. Or, oh, you’re not seeing this. I really think it’s this and not that. You know, those impulses that we all have, especially if we.

[00:16:11] Respected for our advice or our wisdom or whatever. You know, people are seemingly paying us for that. Yeah. How do you manage your own self so that you can be quiet long enough to let people have the breakthroughs that are possible?

[00:16:25] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah, it’s a great question. I’ve got a few suggestions. The first is to realize that you’re, you’re unlearning some deep habits.

[00:16:33] So it’s not easy. It’s like what you’re speaking to Megan is what everybody feels, which is like, I don’t know, how am I gonna get through a whole minute without interrupting that person and offering up my genius ideas and solutions and opinions. So one is to understand that that is a learned habit.

[00:16:50] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm.

[00:16:50] Michael Bungay Stanier: And therefore it’s unlearnable. You know, there’s some research that says, um, doctors, general practitioners interrupt their patients after about 17 seconds. Wow. And I always thought that felt unfair for doctors, because I’m like, actually that’s just humans. Humans just do that, particularly when they’re in that advice giving mode.

[00:17:09] A starting point for this might be a philosophical one, which is how can I be of service to that other person? And to realize that every time you jump in with your ideas and your opinions and your advice, particularly if it’s your default reaction, you’re basically constantly reinforcing, I’m better than you are.

[00:17:28] I’m smarter and wiser and older and faster and just generally better than you. You are not as good as I am. So realizing that there’s a way that when you leap in with your answers and your solutions, there’s a possibility that there’s a degree that you’re diminishing that other person rather than helping that other person.

[00:17:48] That’s kind of just a fundamental framing that your advice isn’t nearly as good or as useful as you think it is.

[00:17:55] Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow.

[00:17:56] Michael Bungay Stanier: The second place I might go is I might say to somebody, you know, if you have clients and the like, say, look, this is what I’m trying to do. Help me with this. I know that I’ve got a bit of an advice monster.

[00:18:07] I’m looking to become better at it. So enroll them to support you and encourage you and train you to kind of build that curiosity muscle. And then the third thing me, is just to give yourself permission to give advice. Because actually there’s a time and a place where that is the right thing to be doing.

[00:18:24] The, the way I define coaching, can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly? So that means in an hour long conversation, if I have an hour long coaching conversation, I’m probably not asking questions for an hour. Honestly, that could get pretty irritating if I’m on the end of the side of it.

[00:18:44] I’m like, it’s like drive by questioning happening here. I don’t want that. I want, I want to be able to figure out as much as I can by myself before you come in with your ideas and your opinions and your suggestions. So you know, Megan, if somebody comes up to me and goes, Hey Michael, how do I do this?

[00:19:04] That’s a question that really triggers your advice Monster. Your advice Monster goes, thank you very much. They are literally asking for your help and who are you not to give that? And by the way, you’re like, and this is awesome ’cause I’m so smart and I’m so wise and this will prove I might be getting old, but this will prove that I’ve still got, I’ve got some mojo here.

[00:19:22] Fantastic. And I’ve got a really specific script, which you and everybody welcome to steal. When somebody comes up to me and goes, Hey, how do I do this thing? I go, look, great question. And look, I’ll certainly help you figure this out. You know, I’m giving them the guarantee that they will, will get an answer to this.

[00:19:39] And I’ve got some ideas, but before I give you my ideas, I bet you’ve thought of this. What are your first ideas on this? I mean, what, what’s your first thought on how you might go about doing this? Guaranteed they have a first idea around going it that, and I’ll nod my head and I’ll go, oh yeah, that’s great.

[00:19:54] Yeah. I love it. Good. What else? What else could you do? See, I’m getting that and what else question in, and I’m nodding my head and I’m never saying, no, that’s a terrible idea. I don’t believe you came up with that idea. Are you, are you mad? I’m affirming everything they’re saying. I may not be, I might not think it’s a great idea, but I’m definitely nodding my head.

[00:20:12] You, I’ll go. Okay, great. What else could you do? They come up with a stupid idea. I go, oh, interesting. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. What else could you do? Yeah, good. Oh. Oh, okay. Oh, I hadn’t thought of that. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Curious. Um, what else? Anything else? And then I’m like, ah, these are great. I love all of these.

[00:20:30] Let me give you a couple of thoughts I’ve got on my own and that just, and then we can decide what you wanna do with that. And what I’m doing with this is I, I’m kind of seeing what they’ve already figured out for themselves. And honestly, half the time they don’t even realize they’ve had these ideas.

[00:20:45] Mm-hmm. So they’re actually going, oh, I’m pretty good at this. So you are help, you’re affirming them in some ways. Ways. Secondly, I’m making sure that I’m not being redundant with all my ideas if they’ve already figured them out for themselves. I mean, it’s not helpful for me to give you advice if you’ve already figured that out.

[00:21:00] Mm-hmm. But I don’t know what you’ve already figured out. So I’m like, tell me what you’ve already figured out here. And then I wait till the end and I, if necessary, still add an idea or two of my own, just to kind of, you know, affirm that I’m still the smart person in the room. You know, I just wanna maintain some of my status and authority here.

[00:21:17] But now they’ve got a choice of ideas on the table. And now I go, look here, you’ve got a bunch of good ideas here. Which one do you think you might wanna do? And we can move into the action side of it,

[00:21:28] Michael Hyatt: you know, at the very least. This gives you a chance to get a huge data intake so that Yeah. Whatever you advice you give.

[00:21:35] It’s really on the nose. We wanna pick on physicians. Again, a lot of times they’re diagnosing problems that they think they have all the information.

[00:21:44] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah.

[00:21:45] Michael Hyatt: But they probably don’t.

[00:21:46] Michael Bungay Stanier: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:47] Michael Hyatt: But it’s the same. It’s true for us, it’s, it’s actually worse for us.

[00:21:50] Michael Bungay Stanier: Here’s the danger with this, Michael. I mean, what you’re saying is absolutely true, but what I notice is often when people are in coaching mode and they move into asking why questions, that’s often a bit of a red flag for me.

[00:22:02] Megan Hyatt Miller: Hmm.

[00:22:02] Michael Bungay Stanier: For a couple of reasons. The first is, it’s actually pretty hard to ask a why question without it sounding slightly aggressive. Uhhuh. So when I go,

[00:22:11] Megan Hyatt Miller: yeah.

[00:22:12] Michael Bungay Stanier: Hey Michael, why are you doing that? There’s a subtext, which is Michael, you loser. Why are you doing that? Um. Then more subtly, often people are asking why, so they can gather more data so they can then come up with a better answer to solve the problem.

[00:22:30] But if my job is not to really solve the problem, but to help you figure out how to solve the problem, there’s a lot of information that you just don’t need to do.

[00:22:38] Michael Hyatt: Hmm.

[00:22:38] Michael Bungay Stanier: When I taught this live and I taught this around the world, I would coach people in different languages. Now I speak four dialects. I speak Australian, I speak English, I speak Canadian, and I speak American because I’ve lived in all four of those countries.

[00:22:53] But I don’t speak any other foreign language. It’s embarrassing seeing me in France trying to speak French to people. But I have literally coached people in more than 35 different languages because I’ll ask the question, what’s the real challenge here for you? They will answer and finish. I’ll go, that sounds like a real challenge, but what else is a challenge here for you?

[00:23:12] Great. What else is a challenge? So what’s the real challenge here for you? And they’re explaining this in finish and they are figuring stuff out. I’m like holding the space and I’m picking up the kind of the vibe and so I kind of know that I can see them making progress even though I don’t speak Japanese or Papua New Guinean dialects or Finnish or any of the languages I’ve spoken in, and it’s really freeing to say, look, most of the time they don’t need you to solve the problem for them.

[00:23:42] They just need a space. Yeah. To help them figure some stuff out for themselves.

[00:23:52] Megan Hyatt Miller: When you’re talking, I’m just thinking that one of the things that we come to these conversations with is a lot of anxiety, either anxiety, that we’ve got to prove our value to that person, or like you said, our status, whatever it is, there’s some kind of like anxious energy that we come to, and I’m in a real phase of my life where I’m asking the question of how can I do things peacefully?

[00:24:18] Like what’s the peaceful.

[00:24:20] Michael Hyatt: Yeah,

[00:24:21] Megan Hyatt Miller: way of being here and how can I be with people who have questions or challenges and yet take an appropriate amount of responsibility for that, which is not a lot, but bring myself, like, be fully willing to serve somebody, but without taking responsibility for the outcome.

[00:24:38] And that’s a really tricky thing to figure out. I mean, I, I think about like loved ones that I have that are in recovery and the work around codependence and like, we can get so codependent in these conversations where, yeah, it’s like a runaway train of codependence where like your solution is like my, I’m fully invested in that in a way that’s straight off the bridge, dysfunctional.

[00:25:01] And, and so I, I think that this is what you’re describing. The reason it feels hard to me anyway, is because it requires not being codependent and being in a place of surrender. Like really trusting that the answers exist, but they don’t have to come through you. And the gift that you can give somebody is carving out this space and they probably can’t do that for themselves.

[00:25:25] You can help them get quiet and guide them through a process where they can then discover things that were in there, but everything was too noisy and too chaotic to be able to hear it. And that’s an a tremendous gift to give somebody, but very different than I have the answers for you. Like a little FedEx package.

[00:25:41] Michael Bungay Stanier: Right? And this the coaching Habit 10 year anniversary. There’s this new chapter about the being of coaching, and it was only by writing it that I came to realize this kind of deeper appreciation I have for so often. I’ll say it again. People wanna be seen and they want to be heard. Mm-hmm. And they want to be encouraged, which is actually separate from have we solved this problem or not?

[00:26:02] Mm-hmm. Because sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t. But if people go, I felt like I had a space where I could really be myself and figure it out, and people saw me and I was like, I feel encouraged for that. That’s a real gift. But Megan, you’re quite right. Our desire to, to really be helpful is a slippery thing.

[00:26:21] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:22] Michael Bungay Stanier: It you can really entangle us.

[00:26:23] Michael Hyatt: How, how do you think this applies to people who aren’t professional coaches? Like let’s just say you’re a, you’re a parent or you’re as Yeah. I’m thinking

[00:26:31] Megan Hyatt Miller: about being a parent man. Gosh, this applies especially teenagers. If you have teenagers, if you know teenagers,

[00:26:38] Michael Hyatt: well, I’ve watched you

[00:26:38] Megan Hyatt Miller: do this.

[00:26:38] Pay attention. This is so helpful.

[00:26:40] Michael Hyatt: I’ve watched you do this and your sister Mindy, and it’s extraordinary. I wish I had had this information when I was raising you all.

[00:26:49] Megan Hyatt Miller: Talk about people that don’t want your solutions. You know what I mean? Like they know they don’t want it, but they do wanna talk to you about it.

[00:26:55] It’s such a weird dynamic. It’s like, I wanna talk to you about my problems, but don’t give me any solutions. You’re like, oh gosh, what do I do? Right?

[00:27:02] Michael Bungay Stanier: So I’m happily child free. So I’m always a slightly wary to step into the, let me give you some good advice on about parenting. ’cause I’ve never done it, but I’m sure it’s easier than it looks.

[00:27:12] But I wish

[00:27:13] Megan Hyatt Miller: that were true.

[00:27:14] Michael Bungay Stanier: But I do. I mean, when I observe parents, particularly with teenagers, I’m like, okay, so we know teenagers and young people are having a hard time of it. They always have had a hard time of it. It feels harder now than. Before we know teenagers are biologically designed to resist all advice from everybody.

[00:27:33] Terrible love their teenagers. And they’re like, what I know is how to give you advice. And so they get locked into this vicious circle of like, I’m gonna resist your advice. Well, the only thing I’ve got is to give you advice. And so that entangling, so man, let me ask you, I mean, what have you learned around how to stay curious and hold space for your young, the young people in your life?

[00:27:55] Megan Hyatt Miller: Well, it’s interesting because what you’re talking about with adults is really what we’re hoping our kids can get to, which is they, they come to a place of being able to listen to themselves, to hear their inner voice, to hear God’s voice within them. To have, you know, to have that kind of ability to tune in and ultimately, yeah.

[00:28:16] To make good decisions from that place. And that’s not a thing. I think we’re like naturally, like it’s a skill set I think we have to develop. I have two adult children who are outta the house now, and I have three still at home, and my two middle ones are teenagers, 17 and 15. And the teenagers right now, you know, I’m, I’m like right on the cusp of them becoming adults.

[00:28:36] And I’m thinking to myself, I want you to learn how to take responsibility for your life. Like the solution to you being successfully an adult is not call mom for the right answer because like, I’m not always gonna be here. You’re gonna be in situations where that’s not practical. It would be weird. Like there’s so many, you know, there’s problems with it, right?

[00:28:56] I want you to be able to like learn how to answer your own questions and learn how life really works. And the best way to do that is one, I don’t insulate you from the reality of life in ways that keep you kind of immature. And I think I also ask questions where you can discover the answers. Reason your way there on your own, because that’s a skillset you’re gonna need for life.

[00:29:19] And when I think about these questions, like I, you know, one of my sons is thinking about college and thinking about getting recruited for football. And you know, there’s lots of challenges with that. It’s not, not going quite like he hoped it would, and there’s a lot of emotions about it. He doesn’t like my advice when I give him advice, but I think deep down he knows what to do.

[00:29:37] He just doesn’t know yet, even more than an adult, he doesn’t have that ability to create space to come to that self-awareness of what he should do. And so these questions, I think for parents like me who are inclined to give advice, which is probably all parents, it kind of gives us a track to run on.

[00:29:56] Where now the kids don’t feel defensive. They don’t come into the conversation defensive because it’s not gonna be,

[00:30:02] Michael Bungay Stanier: yeah,

[00:30:02] Megan Hyatt Miller: I disagree. What you’re saying is wrong. That would never work. Which is generally how the conversation goes. You know? Like you’re wrong. Yeah. You don’t understand whatever. If you’re not giving any advice and you’re just creating that space.

[00:30:14] I think they come to their like pretty good answers on their own.

[00:30:18] Michael Bungay Stanier: I, I would guess.

[00:30:19] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:30:19] Michael Bungay Stanier: Often they do.

[00:30:20] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:30:20] Michael Bungay Stanier: And sometimes they don’t because, you know,

[00:30:22] Megan Hyatt Miller: and

[00:30:22] Michael Bungay Stanier: that’s

[00:30:22] Megan Hyatt Miller: okay too.

[00:30:23] Michael Bungay Stanier: They also have, they also have brains that are half built at, at you when they’re that age.

[00:30:27] Megan Hyatt Miller: So true.

[00:30:27] Michael Bungay Stanier: I think so often. That’s why the question, how can I help here?

[00:30:32] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yes.

[00:30:32] Michael Bungay Stanier: Can be a really powerful opening question. ’cause when you are a young person arrives and they’re in a state of discombobulation. You’re like, I think I know what they need.

[00:30:43] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:30:44] Michael Bungay Stanier: And the answer is, you don’t actually know what they need because they haven’t told you yet and they may not know themselves.

[00:30:49] So if you go, man, I can see you’re upset. How can I be most helpful here? How can I support you in this moment? At a bare minimum, there’s two things that they might say. One might be, I just need somebody to listen as I just go blah, and get it off my chest. Like, don’t gimme any answers, but I just wanna be able to say it so I feel seen and heard and encouraged.

[00:31:11] Or they may go, I’m really trying to figure this out and I dunno how to get to an answer. I’d like you to help me figure this out and give your suggestions. And you’re like, great, I’ve, I’ve been given permission.

[00:31:20] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep. And that’s a big point. I think when they give you permission, their willingness, right, to listen to what you do have to say when it is time to give advice, if that time comes, is very different when they’ve said, I want your help to figure this thing out, versus I don’t.

[00:31:37] Michael Bungay Stanier: I dunno if that’s true for the, the two of you, but I know there’s times in my life I’ve gone to people and I’ve gone look, I just want to speak this out loud just to hear myself say it out loud. And then the person’s come in with advice and suggestions. Yes. It depends on, I’m like, I really, now I have to explain.

[00:31:54] Now I have to be coached by you and I don’t wanna be coached by you or you’ve got me. You’re giving me answers that are ridiculous and I thought of them already and I don’t want that. I just wanna be, I just wanna be heard in this moment. Yeah. But there are other times I’m like, help me figure this out.

[00:32:09] Yeah. I’m stuck and I don’t even know how to come up with an answer.

[00:32:11] Michael Hyatt: Well, my wife Gail calls this, um, when I get into this mode, CEO.

[00:32:15] Michael Bungay Stanier: Right,

[00:32:16] Michael Hyatt: because you know, for large chunk of my career, I was a CEO and you know, the reason I I became the CEO is because I had better answers than my peers and produced better results than my peers.

[00:32:28] And so after a while, it kind of goes to your head and it’s not even, you’re not even aware of it.

[00:32:32] Megan Hyatt Miller: It’s just like your default mode.

[00:32:33] Michael Hyatt: It’s my default mode. And so somebody shares a problem with me and I instantly try to fix it.

[00:32:38] Megan Hyatt Miller: You actually don’t, I don’t think this is true.

[00:32:40] Michael Hyatt: That’s because your memory’s short.

[00:32:44] So this, this is why Michael, this is why God gave me a wife and five daughters because they have had to beat this into me because it’s not natural. But I think I’m better now.

[00:32:53] Megan Hyatt Miller: I think you’re really good at it. I mean, I, I actually think you’re better than mom at it sometimes Mom is like, I’m here with my answers, you know, and you’re like, no, just listen.

[00:33:02] No, she’s pretty good too. But I think, I think you’re really good at this. I think you’ve become better at like taming that advice monster and sitting with people in. The discomfort of the moment and not presuming, yeah, that what it’s kinda like, I’m not gonna presume you need answers from me until you tell me so.

[00:33:23] And just having that be your default response, like empathy and creating space is actually the default instead of fixing the problem.

[00:33:31] Michael Bungay Stanier: That’s great. Yeah, I agree. Honestly, sometimes the thing to say is, man, this sounds really hard.

[00:33:38] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:33:39] Michael Hyatt: Yes.

[00:33:39] Michael Bungay Stanier: And that’s it. Yes. That’s it. That’s all you need to say. Which is like, man, I can’t even imagine how hard this must be for you.

[00:33:47] I mean, I really admire you for sticking with it.

[00:33:49] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:33:50] Michael Bungay Stanier: You know? Yes. There’s, there’s nothing there other than like, I, I, I think I get a sense of how hard this is, and I, you know,

[00:33:57] Michael Hyatt: the worst thing you do in that moment is, oh, well that reminds me of the time when I had an even tougher challenge.

[00:34:02] Megan Hyatt Miller: Oh my gosh.

[00:34:03] That’s the worst.

[00:34:04] Michael Hyatt: You know, it’s like

[00:34:04] Megan Hyatt Miller: the one upmanship. The one upmanship of the problem. Exactly. Yeah. I think a lot of times we just wanna be, like you said, Michael seen, and sometimes the problems that people come to us with, and I, this is maybe less true in a professional capacity and more in a personal one, but they’re not problems that have solutions.

[00:34:23] You know, like sometimes enduring or just it’s outside of our control and you’re just not gonna be able to fix it. Right. But what you can do is not leave that person alone in it and what a gift that is. Ooh,

[00:34:35] Michael Hyatt: that’s

[00:34:35] Michael Bungay Stanier: good. Yeah.

[00:34:35] Megan Hyatt Miller: When they’re not alone.

[00:34:36] Michael Bungay Stanier: One of the phrases I’ve started just saying to people, not just young people, friends and the like, who, who are going through a a tough time is to say, I’m Team Michael.

[00:34:46] I’m team Megan. I’m just declaring that I’m on your side. Mm. I don’t even know what that means. Love, but, but I love want you to know that I, I’m, I am with you. I am. I’m team Stu. I’m to whoever that person might be. It’s like, I love you and I want the best for you, and I don’t even know how to be, or I can’t think of anything to do, so I’m just trying to be with you in this moment.

[00:35:09] And it’s killing me because I, I like to fix things. Yeah. We all like to fix things. We all like to move through the ambiguity and the discomfort and the, and the mess and the sadness and the grief and the anger that might be there in it in a moment. But if you can have that capacity to sit with it and going, even in this uncomfortable moment, I’m team hired.

[00:35:30] Mm. You know, there’s something really generous about that. Beautiful.

[00:35:32] Michael Hyatt: One of the things I think I’ve also, uh, been a late bloomer on is empathy.

[00:35:36] Michael Bungay Stanier: Mm.

[00:35:37] Michael Hyatt: And part of it is, I’ll use this as an excuse, but maybe it’s an explanation, but I’m an Enneagram three. Which means that I will sacrifice almost anything in the name of efficiency and productivity.

[00:35:48] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:48] Michael Hyatt: So emotions are oftentimes very unproductive and kind of get in the way.

[00:35:53] Megan Hyatt Miller: They’re a little messy.

[00:35:54] Michael Hyatt: A little messy.

[00:35:55] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. Hard to schedule

[00:35:55] Michael Hyatt: them. Inefficient. Yeah. Schedule ’em. But the one thing that I’ve done in trying to practice what you teach, and I ever since I read the book first back in 2017, is to be more empathetic.

[00:36:07] And this creates space not only for the other person, but for me to feel what they’re feeling. Yeah. And I, I wonder if this is true for you and I, I just find myself more easily moved emotionally and more choked up when other people are sharing their struggles. And I, I, I would never, ever do that for, you know, as, as a way to manipulate them, or it just kinda like naturally occurs.

[00:36:30] Mm-hmm. But it’s also very useful. ’cause p then people are feeling like they’re not suffering alone.

[00:36:35] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah. I mean, outta curiosity, do you know what the Enneagram three. Evolves towards,

[00:36:40] Michael Hyatt: yes. If you’re in health, it goes towards the high side of six, which is loyalty and friendship.

[00:36:46] Michael Bungay Stanier: Got it.

[00:36:46] Megan Hyatt Miller: Interesting. Very like community oriented.

[00:36:49] Michael Hyatt: Yeah,

[00:36:49] Michael Bungay Stanier: because I’m a classic waspy old, middle-aged man, so I have limited access to my feelings. It’s really frustrating because I keep working at it and I’m like, I’m sure there are feelings down there somewhere. I’m just trying to, trying to get there and my wife is, is much more attuned to how she feels.

[00:37:08] So she goes up and down a bit more and I’m kind of more of a steady base around that. But like you, I’m trying to be present to the other person and there’s something in that presence that allows me to kind of be connected to emotions. And it might be, and I’m just saying this out loud, I dunno if it’s the truth.

[00:37:26] It might be, ’cause I’m like, I’m actually outta my own head ’cause I’m trying to be there with that other person and getting outta my own head allows perhaps more access to some of the other stuff that’s going on in my body.

[00:37:37] Michael Hyatt: I think that’s a hundred percent right.

[00:37:39] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:40] Michael Hyatt: You know, I think if you think of the word sympathy or empathy, you know, they both have to do with a sharing of emotion.

[00:37:47] Michael Bungay Stanier: Mm.

[00:37:48] Michael Hyatt: You know, you may share a common knowledge base, but to have similar emotions, you know, then I think people feel Yeah. Seen and heard in a very important and special way. Like they’re not crazy, like this is hurtful, or it’s sad, or it’s joyful, or whatever it is. Yeah. But to have somebody, you know, there’s this, there’s this verse in the Bible that I love.

[00:38:08] It just says, rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep.

[00:38:11] Michael Bungay Stanier: Right.

[00:38:12] Michael Hyatt: I think that’s so powerful.

[00:38:13] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm. I remember one time I was in therapy, and this was probably in my twenties, so this is a long time ago now, and I remember that the Thera come

[00:38:21] Michael Bungay Stanier: on, not that long ago,

[00:38:22] Megan Hyatt Miller: just a couple of decades and change, but thank you.

[00:38:25] But I, I can remember the therapist cried when I shared a story. It had never happened to me before.

[00:38:32] Michael Hyatt: Wow.

[00:38:32] Megan Hyatt Miller: And it felt very like, you know, we were breaking some kind of third wall, you know, it’s like you’re supposed to be detached and not, I mean, you hear people talk about their sad stories all the time, whatever.

[00:38:43] It was so meaningful to me that my story meant enough to her that she actually cried like it. I just felt so seen in that moment and it was so validating that like, oh, I’m not crazy. I haven’t made this up. I’m not being dramatic. This other person who. Like in a clinical setting is so moved by that story that they, I don’t, I literally don’t even remember what the story was that I was telling.

[00:39:12] Like, I don’t know. I don’t remember all these years later, you know, but it, but what I do remember is that’s, that’s the moment, right.

[00:39:18] Michael Bungay Stanier: Seen and heard. You’re

[00:39:19] Megan Hyatt Miller: like, the

[00:39:19] Michael Bungay Stanier: details come and go. But that sense of like, oh, somebody got me in

[00:39:23] Megan Hyatt Miller: that movement. Somebody got me.

[00:39:24] Michael Bungay Stanier: That’s,

[00:39:25] Megan Hyatt Miller: yeah, that’s what

[00:39:26] Michael Bungay Stanier: resonates. It’s

[00:39:26] Megan Hyatt Miller: huge.

[00:39:26] And you know, I think we feel like we can’t do that in a professional setting. Like, it, this makes sense in therapy and it makes sense, like in our friendships and with our families and whatever that feels sort of like in bounds. Yeah. But as someone who’s, you know, been leading a team for a while, and I think we need more of that, more humanity in the workplace.

[00:39:45] Michael Hyatt: More heart,

[00:39:45] Megan Hyatt Miller: more heart. I have had so many things happen in people’s lives personally as a boss, where. Everything from a family member literally being murdered to hard diagnoses, to divorces, to addiction, to like every, all the big stuff, you know? Yeah. And most of that I was aware of, and other people were not, you know, there was some reason they needed to share that with me or I became privy to it, but they, their colleagues were not aware of that.

[00:40:13] Yeah. And very often as a boss, you know, if you’re, if you find yourself in a position of leadership, you may very well be privy to some of the most personal and painful moments. Mm-hmm. Certainly joyful too, you know, babies and weddings and whatever else, but the most painful moments of someone’s life. And if you’re willing to ask questions and be in that suffering, you’re probably one of the few people that will be in that with them.

[00:40:38] And we don’t think about that very often.

[00:40:39] Michael Bungay Stanier: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:40] Megan Hyatt Miller: Because it, that doesn’t, that’s not business, but it is business. Yeah. Because we’re in the business of whole people.

[00:40:45] Michael Bungay Stanier: Let me offer up some questions because I wrote a book called How to Work with Almost Anyone.

[00:40:49] Megan Hyatt Miller: Oh good. Yes.

[00:40:49] Michael Bungay Stanier: And uh, it’s really about how do I connect better with the other person, so we bring out the best in each other.

[00:40:55] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:55] Michael Bungay Stanier: And the kind of key tactic at the heart of this book is have a conversation about how you wanna work together before you get cracking on the work. ’cause almost always in a work setting, the work is the thing. So everybody’s like, it’s an urgent, you know, it’s a priority, it’s urgent, it’s a crisis, or it’s just exciting or whatever.

[00:41:13] We just, let’s do the work. That’s what we get measured on and that’s what my job description says. But that moment of going, Hey, let’s talk about how you and I best work together before we get on with the work can be really powerful. There are three que, there are five in the book, but there are three questions I’ll, I’ll mention now.

[00:41:30] The first question is, what’s your best? And it’s actually asking when do you shine and when do you flow?

[00:41:36] Michael Hyatt: Mm.

[00:41:36] Michael Bungay Stanier: Because actually people make up stuff about you right away in terms of who you are and how you work. If you can actually say, look, let me tell you where I’m at my best. And if I know, if you know when I’m at my best and I know when you are at your best, there’s a good chance we’re gonna try and figure out ways to be at our best ’cause we both win when that happens.

[00:41:54] Mm. The second question that might be helpful is called the the good date question, which is, what can we learn from past successful working relationships? Like when I’ve worked with somebody like you and it’s been really great, what happened? What did they do? And what did you do? And what does that tell us about what we should do?

[00:42:11] And then the flip side question of that is the bad date question, which is, right. What can you learn from past frustrating relationships? You know, when you’ve had relationships, when we’ve been in this kind of situation, and it’s been really annoying, you know, and it’s frustrating and irritating, and it’s just been deeply mediocre.

[00:42:27] What happened? You know, what did I do? What did the other person do that made that dysfunctional? And just sharing some of that information.

[00:42:35] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:42:36] Michael Bungay Stanier: It doesn’t get down to that level of revelation around, you know. You know, this is the trauma or the challenge I’ve got right now, but it is very much about how do I really see you as a person?

[00:42:48] How do we bring out the very best in each other? And being able to share your answers around some of that can be really helpful.

[00:43:00] Megan Hyatt Miller: Okay. I have like a real live case study. Are you ready?

[00:43:03] Michael Hyatt: Yeah.

[00:43:04] Megan Hyatt Miller: So I have just hired a new executive assistant. Her name is Mika. Mm-hmm. She’s wonderful. She’s been with me for I think, five or six weeks at this point. Okay. She replaced an assistant that I had for four years before that, who, four years before that had been working with our company, so eight total years in the company, and my previous assistant left to have her third baby.

[00:43:23] She’s gonna come back in a part-time capacity, but not as my assistant. I adored her. We were very close, like, you know, it’s, it’s been like a real point of grief that she’s gone. ’cause I just, I was so close with her and I know that if I wanna have. As good or better of a professional relationship with Mika, my new assistant.

[00:43:41] I’ve gotta really invest in that. But I’m a little at a loss because the other relationship happened so long ago and it was so much of, it was so easy. ’cause she’d been here a long time before she became my assistant. Yeah. That I’m like, tell me what to do because I want this to be, that was a little bait for you by the way, that you catch that.

[00:44:00] Um, no, but, but seriously, like, I wanna make that relationship even better than the previous one that I had. But it’s not all together. Intuitive pass the just normal, teach you how to do things, share my preferences, all that kind of stuff.

[00:44:16] Michael Bungay Stanier: So I’ve got some ideas on, on what you could do. But before I share some of my thoughts, what, I mean as you listen to yourself, how would you coach yourself on this?

[00:44:24] Megan Hyatt Miller: See now I know. See what

[00:44:26] Michael Bungay Stanier: I’m doing here

[00:44:27] Megan Hyatt Miller: now I know. I see what you’re doing. Well, I would say that there were some real things that Elizabeth and I did. Early on, so Elizabeth was the previous assistant.

[00:44:37] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah.

[00:44:37] Megan Hyatt Miller: That made our relationship great. You know, we spent a lot of time together. We traveled together some, we did a lot of events together.

[00:44:44] There was just a lot of in-person time, hours spent together, hours spent together. That helped us to learn each other. And I think that that you can’t really put that in a book. You know? There’s some of that that you have to have to do. So I think having more time in person is really important, which is a little bit contrary to how we naturally work, like in a more remote capacity.

[00:45:07] Yeah. But I think that would be one thing. I think maybe identifying what the things were that were great about the relationship with Elizabeth and saying, these were the things that Elizabeth was really great at, and here’s why she was great at them. Yeah, and I don’t want you to have to figure this out.

[00:45:23] I just wanna tell you, you know, like let’s have a, a shortcut to knowing that ’cause we spent a lot of years figuring that out. Um, so those are a couple of things.

[00:45:32] Michael Bungay Stanier: Lemme ask you this, Megan, in six months time, let’s imagine that this relationship has gone south and it has not ended well and it’s been disappointing.

[00:45:41] Disappointing for her. Disappointing for you. Frustrating. ’cause you could see the potential now, but it just hasn’t worked out. What’s been your role in this not working?

[00:45:52] Megan Hyatt Miller: Well, that’s easy. It’s probably the role that I always have and that’s abdicating. Where I sort of expected her to read my mind or expected her to just get me, you know, quote unquote in ways that she would’ve no way to do.

[00:46:08] Like, that’s not accessible. Um, it’s an unreasonable expectation and that I didn’t do a good job of communicating what I needed or wanted or why. Providing enough context so that then she kind of developed an operating model for my world that would help her to then in real time, make decisions and things like that, even if the situations were different, because she would have kind of principles in mind.

[00:46:30] I think if I, if I withhold myself or expect that, you know, through some osmosis, she could immediately be where Elizabeth was after eight years. That’s a real setup for failure.

[00:46:43] Michael Bungay Stanier: So how would you coach Mika to work with you knowing that that could happen?

[00:46:50] Megan Hyatt Miller: Hmm.

[00:46:52] Michael Hyatt: That’s a great question. You should be a coach.

[00:46:54] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. You should be a coach. Are you taking clients?

[00:46:56] Michael Bungay Stanier: I’m, I’m, I’m feeling it out, you know?

[00:46:57] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. I think there’s

[00:46:58] Michael Bungay Stanier: something here as

[00:46:58] Megan Hyatt Miller: well. There might be something here. I think I would coach her to ask me why, you know, when I asked her to do something, well, why do you wanna, why did you ask me to schedule that appointment in the afternoon as opposed to 10 o’clock in the morning?

[00:47:13] And then I would say something like, well, I really like to keep my days as open as possible and concentrate the appointments at the end of the day so that I can, when I’m writing or when I’m doing creative work, I can kind of stay in that head space. If I have to pop out for half an hour, it really is disruptive, you know, those kinds of things.

[00:47:31] Michael Bungay Stanier: I’m gonna come back to this. I got one more question for you. How long did it take Elizabeth to become all knowing or doing the perfect assistant for you?

[00:47:40] Megan Hyatt Miller: Probably one to two years.

[00:47:43] Michael Bungay Stanier: Got it. How long are you giving Mika to get to that same standard? Oh

[00:47:46] Megan Hyatt Miller: yeah.

[00:47:48] Michael Hyatt: Another week.

[00:47:49] Megan Hyatt Miller: Another just another week Could be about right.

[00:47:51] Exactly. Four, eight hours maybe. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, I think that probably the story that I’ve told myself, and by the way, it’s going great. Like, there’s no problem. So I should say that unless Mika, you’re listening. Yeah. She’s like, oh gosh, am I in trouble? No, not at all. Um, I think when we, when Elizabeth and I began the hiring process, ’cause we knew she’s having this baby and so we’re gonna have to find a replacement.

[00:48:11] Yeah. I think in my mind I probably thought, okay, we’ve got a 90 day onboarding plan that’s very well thought out with a whole handbook that Elizabeth has made, like, you know, yeah. That, I mean like 90, 90 days let’s go, you know, like we’ll be good to go. And that. That would be like saying, I’ve been married to my husband for 16 years, just about, and that would be like saying, you know, if he died tomorrow and I married somebody, like how long do you think it would take you to have a, the kind of marriage you had a Joel, after 16 years, I’ve

[00:48:36] Michael Bungay Stanier: not, I’ve got a 90 day onboarding

[00:48:37] Megan Hyatt Miller: plan and then 90, I expect you to 90 days.

[00:48:38] That’ll be great. You know, it’s, it’s like this is insanity, but these are the assumptions that we have that we are not examined and they set us up for failure. Right.

[00:48:47] Michael Bungay Stanier: They do. Yeah.

[00:48:48] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. That’s, that’s a great question. So, so a year or two would be realistic.

[00:48:52] Michael Bungay Stanier: I think you could say. I mean, a year or two, you do have more data now about you.

[00:48:56] That’s true. And about processes and stuff. So it may not take a year or two, but it doesn’t feel like 90 days is a fair burden or Right. Or whatever it might be going. Like, I expect you, I mean, I know with my assistant, she was good enough right away, but she started getting great in the second year of us, of, of us working together.

[00:49:16] Megan Hyatt Miller: That feels reasonable.

[00:49:17] Michael Bungay Stanier: But there’s something about. Pulling back occasionally and just going, how’s this working?

[00:49:23] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:49:23] Michael Bungay Stanier: How are we doing?

[00:49:24] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep.

[00:49:25] Michael Bungay Stanier: How’s it working for you? How’s it working for me, one of the questions that I found most helpful, particularly if I’m the more senior person in the relationship, is, uh, what needs to be said that hasn’t yet been said.

[00:49:36] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:38] Michael Bungay Stanier: Because there’s often a kind of a, yeah. Should I mention this? But maybe I won’t mention it. Yeah. Because it could be a career limiting move.

[00:49:44] Megan Hyatt Miller: Sure.

[00:49:45] Michael Bungay Stanier: And it’s a way of just kind of surfacing some of the stuff that’s going on. This is projection because this is how I do it, Megan. So it may not be right at all for you, but I find I get more bang for the buck, not out of how do we keep amplifying what works, but how will we avoid us colluding to not make this work?

[00:50:05] Megan Hyatt Miller: Ooh.

[00:50:06] Michael Bungay Stanier: And so I, I say that’s such a good insight. Lemme tell you, let me tell you how I will screw up this relationship. I’ll start off great. When you get my attention, you’ll feel fantastic. ’cause I’m good at being present in the moment. Mm-hmm. But at a certain point, I’ll become a bottleneck. The way I I respond to bottlenecking is becoming more distant and more passive.

[00:50:26] You’ll start thinking it’s about you. It’s not really not about you, it’s really about me. But I, I’ll encourage you to think that because I’ll make me feel better about myself. And, um, are you in my

[00:50:37] Megan Hyatt Miller: email inbox right now?

[00:50:39] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah, I’ve seen it. I have. I’ve seen, I’ve got it up here.

[00:50:42] Megan Hyatt Miller: It’s a nightmare. Yeah, right.

[00:50:42] It’s a mess.

[00:50:43] Michael Bungay Stanier: Um, and then I go, so here’s how you need to manage this with me, and here’s what I expect from you. And I will call them mostly on. A lack of courage and actively participating in this relationship. I’m like, this is your job. Doing this stuff is great. I just expect you to get better and better at that.

[00:51:03] Make some mistakes, but you’ll get the hang of it. But learning to manage me, that is the hardest of all things. ’cause I am slippery and I’m elusive, and I’m the boss and I’m charming, and I am skilled at self deception because I’m a coach, so I can make it sound like things are happening when they’re not happening.

[00:51:22] So if you can, if you can figure me out, you are crushing it. But we need to work at that. Yeah. And I make that the conversation.

[00:51:28] Michael Hyatt: I love that.

[00:51:28] Megan Hyatt Miller: Right. This is so good.

[00:51:30] Michael Hyatt: You know, it’s, it’s funny, this is, you know, I spent a lot of time in the world of ai and one of the things that a lot of my clients have complained about, and I’ve seen it myself too, is that AI can just be so flattering.

[00:51:42] And every idea you have is

[00:51:43] Megan Hyatt Miller: what

[00:51:44] Michael Hyatt: a thoughtful question,

[00:51:45] Megan Hyatt Miller: you know?

[00:51:46] Michael Hyatt: Yeah. What a thoughtful question. Yeah. And so I, I wrote some instructions, and I’ve taught my clients to do this too, to give the AI permission. To push back to challenge my assumptions Right. To point out inconsistencies in my arguments and the experience has gotten so much better.

[00:52:03] But it’s interesting, what sometimes is invisible to me in a human relationship is much more apparent to me in an AI relationship. But they’re really the same, you know, garbage in, garbage out if you don’t

[00:52:15] Michael Bungay Stanier: Right.

[00:52:16] Michael Hyatt: You know, give each other permission.

[00:52:17] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:52:18] Michael Hyatt: You know, it’s just not gonna work.

[00:52:19] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:20] Michael Bungay Stanier: Like, for instance, uh, uh, this is very tactical, Megan.

[00:52:23] Yeah. I go, if you send me something requiring my sign off or whatever, there’s, there’s a chance that I will bottleneck it, which will mean it’ll, it’ll vanish into my email or to-dos, and I’ll just not act on it. So, the way I’d like you to do this is send me the thing, say I need your feedback or whatever on this by this date and this time.

[00:52:46] And if you don’t send it by then I’ll assume you’ll have signed off on it.

[00:52:49] Michael Hyatt: Yes,

[00:52:49] Megan Hyatt Miller: I, yeah, I have a negative option. I like that.

[00:52:51] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah. It just is a way that we can both manage one of my foibles in a way that I’m like, no, I, I’ve set this up. I miss my opportunity to give feedback. Therefore it’s, and I basically trust you that it’s gonna be good enough and almost nothing I do is earth shatteringly important enough that if something bad happens, it, you know, it’s just annoying rather than, than anything else.

[00:53:12] So coming up with these little things to go, here’s good’s, how we’re gonna manage my slipperiness.

[00:53:17] Megan Hyatt Miller: I love that too, because it’s very honest. It’s like instead of pretending like best case scenario. Just like in marriage, we’re not gonna pretend best case scenario. We, we know we both are gonna exist a lot of time and stress and like life happens and all that.

[00:53:31] Yeah. So let’s solve for the version of ourselves that’s not like we’re on vacation in Turks and Caicos and it’s amazing. Let’s solve for the version of ourselves that is every day. Right. Kid issues, you know, this, that and the other thing. Yeah. And figure out how we wanna solve for the challenges that come up there.

[00:53:48] That just feels so much more realistic and also hopeful because like if you can do that, you’re golden. And I think about my clients that struggle with personnel issues and it always feels like it’s the other person.

[00:54:01] Michael Hyatt: Yes.

[00:54:02] Megan Hyatt Miller: And it’s not. Yeah. Spoiler.

[00:54:04] Michael Hyatt: It’s not. Well, it goes back to that question that my coach asked me so many years ago and I still use today.

[00:54:08] What was it about your leadership that led to this result? Right?

[00:54:11] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:54:11] Michael Bungay Stanier: Yeah. Yeah, brutal. Brutal question.

[00:54:14] Megan Hyatt Miller: Brutal question.

[00:54:14] Michael Hyatt: Brutal question

[00:54:15] Megan Hyatt Miller: that, that’s like the nuclear question,

[00:54:17] Michael Bungay Stanier: but, but I asked a similar question right with you, Megan, going, how will, if it doesn’t work, how have you, yeah. What’s your, been your role?

[00:54:23] Michael Hyatt: Yes.

[00:54:23] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:54:23] Michael Bungay Stanier: In the failure of this. Yes.

[00:54:25] Michael Hyatt: The, the good thing about that though, control the, the version of your question that’s better is that it’s kind of forward facing.

[00:54:31] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:54:32] Michael Hyatt: So there’s no shame involved. Like, what was it about your leadership? Well, you could go to a place of shame real quickly. Yeah. But when you say, you know, if it is to fail, what will you have done or not done?

[00:54:40] To lead to that. Well, that’s

[00:54:42] Michael Bungay Stanier: right.

[00:54:42] Michael Hyatt: That’s different. It hasn’t happened yet. You can still fix

[00:54:44] Megan Hyatt Miller: it. Yeah. I love that. Oh, we could just keep going forever. This is so great.

[00:54:47] Michael Hyatt: This is where I wish we had a three hour show.

[00:54:49] Megan Hyatt Miller: I know. Alas,

[00:54:50] Michael Hyatt: alas. Here we are at the end. Okay. We have three standard questions that we always ask at the end of the show.

[00:54:55] And uh, I have three

[00:54:56] Michael Bungay Stanier: standard answers. I always give it the end of a show.

[00:54:58] Megan Hyatt Miller: Oh, good.

[00:54:59] See,

[00:54:59] Michael Bungay Stanier: see if my answers and your questions match up.

[00:55:01] Michael Hyatt: Fantastic. And if they don’t, we’ll let people just be confused. Um, so we have this concept called the double win, which we’re Yes,

[00:55:09] Michael Bungay Stanier: of course.

[00:55:10] Michael Hyatt: Really advocates of not only getting for ourselves, but our clients getting and our listeners getting, which is to win at work and succeed at life so that life can be, you know, all dimensional.

[00:55:20] So here’s the first question. What’s your biggest obstacle in getting the devil win?

[00:55:27] Michael Bungay Stanier: My biggest obstacle is. I don’t even know why I’m saying this, but it’s something about my inability to access grief and anger.

[00:55:39] Michael Hyatt: Hmm. Oh hmm.

[00:55:41] Michael Bungay Stanier: I’ve got other things, like, I like to work too much. I mean, my head too much, blah, blah, blah.

[00:55:46] But there’s something about wanting to more fully integrate my head and my emotions. Mm-hmm. That is part of the work for me to do, to become a more complete human being. And I think when you are more integrated at a level, you get to show up in life for the double wing.

[00:56:07] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah. That’s,

[00:56:08] Michael Hyatt: uh, we’ve never had quite that answer.

[00:56:09] Megan Hyatt Miller: We haven’t. That’s a really deep, thoughtful answer,

[00:56:12] Michael Hyatt: but that’s, uh, very thoughtful.

[00:56:12] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm. Okay. How do you know when you personally are getting the double win? Like when you are winning at work and succeeding at life? How do you know?

[00:56:22] Michael Bungay Stanier: Well, my measure is, is what I call banter, and it’s a, so it’s a, it’s a playfulness between me and people.

[00:56:32] Mm. A kind of laughter and teasing and the lightness and the jokingness. The relationships that mean the most to me are ones where they have this banter at the heart of part of it. It’s part of my Australian and kind of British upbringing. It’s that kind of dry, sarcastic British and Australian sense of humor.

[00:56:52] And so if I’ve got that level of playfulness and laughter and banter in my life, things are going really well.

[00:56:59] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm. I love that. That’s a great diagnostic.

[00:57:02] Michael Hyatt: These are not your typical superficial

[00:57:04] Megan Hyatt Miller: answers. No. This, listen.

[00:57:05] Michael Hyatt: Okay. Here’s the third one. Is there one ritual or routine that helps you do what you do?

[00:57:11] Michael Bungay Stanier: Look, the most important thing that allows me to do what I do is less a routine and more just a, the ongoing presence of my wife, Marcella, we’ve been married 30 years. She’s just definitely a person who sees me and gets me and annoys me and encourages me. And you know, there’s, I’ve got small routines like everything.

[00:57:36] I journal a bit. I have a coffee, I work out, I do all the kind of stuff that you, you might expect, but really it’s the ability to be in a room with her is the thing that that matters most. Oh,

[00:57:49] Michael Hyatt: beautiful.

[00:57:49] Megan Hyatt Miller: I love that.

[00:57:50] Michael Hyatt: I might start crying.

[00:57:51] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:57:52] Michael Hyatt: Seriously. That makes me

[00:57:53] Megan Hyatt Miller: Wow.

[00:57:53] Michael Hyatt: Well, Michael, gosh, every time I’m with you, I just wish we had greater proximity ’cause I know we’d be fast friends if we lived close together.

[00:58:03] And we’re friends

[00:58:04] the

[00:58:04] Michael Bungay Stanier: same. Yeah. But not, not I’m around the corner and Nashville friends.

[00:58:07] Michael Hyatt: Yeah. Although you might wanna consider moving here because of, listen, everybody else is everybody and their brother is.

[00:58:12] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:58:12] Michael Bungay Stanier: I, I’ve heard that. I’ve heard Nashville is like expanding at the rate of knots. Yeah.

[00:58:17] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[00:58:17] Michael Hyatt: Well, I just wanna thank you for what you do. I, I just think you’re an amazing human and you write. Really interesting books and there’s so many questions that I wanted to get to. In fact, I wanted to talk about how to begin. But we’ll have to save that for another podcast, another book he’s written. But, um, but thank you.

[00:58:35] Michael Bungay Stanier: It’s been a real pleasure. I really, I really love this conversation. Thank you.

[00:58:38] Megan Hyatt Miller: Same. And thank you for the coaching. I feel like I should write you a check.

[00:58:43] Michael Bungay Stanier: Well, you were the one, you were the one all those years ago that said to Michael, you should read this book and you should talk to him about it. ’cause I, because I’d, I’d actually knocked on, on the door a few times going, do you want come on a podcast and the like, and I hadn’t got through the gatekeepers.

[00:58:56] Megan Hyatt Miller: Okay.

[00:58:57] Michael Bungay Stanier: Well, so you were, you were the one who opened this relationship up all those years ago. So this is, it’s the

[00:59:01] Megan Hyatt Miller: reciprocal thing we have going then.

[00:59:04] Michael Bungay Stanier: Hiding back. Her dad,

[00:59:06] Megan Hyatt Miller: thanks for being with us.

[00:59:17] Michael Hyatt: I have to say, and I think I say this a lot, but that was a phenomenal interview, not because our questions were so good, but he was so good as a guest.

[00:59:26] Megan Hyatt Miller: I just love having great conversations with people and part of what’s fun about doing the show is we are only interviewing people that we really, really wanna talk about.

[00:59:34] Like we’re not just trying to fill holes in the calendar like we are,

[00:59:37] Michael Hyatt: right?

[00:59:37] Megan Hyatt Miller: We’re having conversations with people whose work has been really meaningful to us in some way, and his certainly has. I mean, I think I was reminded of this, again, having learned about him first in 2017, I think, um, just preparing for this interview, I was like, gosh, his way of seeing the world and interacting with people is so different than my default way of being.

[00:59:59] I really need that. I need that challenge and that like paradigm shift.

[01:00:03] Michael Hyatt: His humility

[01:00:04] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yes.

[01:00:04] Michael Hyatt: Is really arresting

[01:00:06] Megan Hyatt Miller: mm-hmm.

[01:00:07] Michael Hyatt: Where you feel like you’re, you’re talking to somebody that really gets you

[01:00:11] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[01:00:11] Michael Hyatt: And gets the situation.

[01:00:13] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[01:00:13] Michael Hyatt: He’s just such a good model for listening.

[01:00:16] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:17] Michael Hyatt: So some of my takeaways, like I had forgotten all those seven questions.

[01:00:20] I, I, I used some of them.

[01:00:22] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[01:00:22] Michael Hyatt: Like I, the one, um, and what else? Mm-hmm. That’s when I use routinely in my own coaching practice. Yeah. And I, I just find that, that when you’re having a conversation with somebody, and particularly when it’s emotionally intense, that they present to you the outside of the onion.

[01:00:38] Yeah. And you have to be patient to peel back the layers because, and he makes the point in the interview, you know, the presenting problem, as they like to say in therapy is not usually the problem.

[01:00:49] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:50] Michael Hyatt: And you have to kind of get to the root of it. And I think. Realizing that people are not just gonna bear their soul immediately.

[01:00:55] It’s gonna be a process of progressive revelation.

[01:00:58] Megan Hyatt Miller: Well, in part because they’re discovering it along with you.

[01:01:01] Michael Hyatt: That’s right.

[01:01:01] Megan Hyatt Miller: It’s not necessarily that they’re withholding, it’s that they don’t know. And part of the gift that you can give people is a place to peel back those onion layers. So they have the process of self-discovery with a witness, which is very different than trying to do that on your own.

[01:01:15] It’s like kind of impossible, you know, if you’ve ever tried. I mean, it’s like why so many of us go to therapy and why we have coaches and why coaching is so valuable in general is it’s, it’s really hard to come to greater self knowledge. Alone, you know?

[01:01:30] Michael Hyatt: So true. And you know, I was reminded again as he was talking of a good friend Daniel Harvie’s book, becoming a coaching leader.

[01:01:35] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[01:01:36] Michael Hyatt: And sort of his paradigm is that a good leader in an organization is a good coach.

[01:01:42] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:43] Michael Hyatt: And when you take that plus Michael’s methodology, you really see a, a different way of leading your team. That, and, and this is, I felt this for a long time, and that is that my role as a leader is not just to help the team get things done, and obviously we have to get things done.

[01:01:59] We have to make money, we have to stay in business, all those things. But even more importantly, because I see myself as a steward is that I want them to become. Something they’re not, I want them to become, to realize more of their potential.

[01:02:12] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yep.

[01:02:13] Michael Hyatt: And the only way that happens is through coaching. And if you think of the best coaches you’ve ever had in your life, there were people who saw something in you that you couldn’t see for yourself.

[01:02:22] Megan Hyatt Miller: Right.

[01:02:22] Michael Hyatt: And you had to rise to the occasion.

[01:02:24] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah, absolutely. I was really struck by, I think as I said at the beginning of the interview, just that visceral reaction I had yesterday as I was preparing and watching his TEDx talk about wanting to jump in and the kind of patience and the kind of self-awareness and I think emotional regulation that it takes to not give advice.

[01:02:49] Because in order to do that, you have to sit in the tension. You have to not prove your value or worth. You have to sort of tolerate the chaos sometimes, because a lot of times the way to, on the way to an answer, it’s pretty chaotic. That can all be uncomfortable, especially depending on your history and how you’re wired and all that, that it’s really a thing.

[01:03:09] Like listening is not passive. It’s like the most active thing you can do. And it requires an incredible amount of sort of self-governance, self-regulation, self-awareness, all those things. And if you do it and you do it with intention and presence, it’s an unbelievable gift. It’s probably the biggest gift you could give anyone.

[01:03:29] Michael Hyatt: It is. And I, I think I feel the tension, particularly in a professional relationship where somebody’s paying me to be their coach. I feel the tension to add value.

[01:03:37] Megan Hyatt Miller: Right, me too.

[01:03:38] Michael Hyatt: And so you’re asking questions, you’re not quite sure where it’s going, where I feel like I’ve got, you know, a pocket full of frameworks and systems and other things that I could share that would add value.

[01:03:49] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:50] Michael Hyatt: And so it’s, it feels risky and it is risky, but to have the courage to kind of be in the present, to ask the questions and be hopeful. Something comes out of it that’s gonna be useful. And it usually does. It’s usually beyond what you could have concocted, you know, in your pre-session preparation.

[01:04:08] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah.

[01:04:09] Michael Hyatt: And it’s probably too with teens too, you know, I’m not in the, in the middle of the battle like you are right now, but I’ve seen you lead your kids in this way. And I think it’s, it’s fascinating to me the conversations that you have with them, or the, or I should say it this way, the things that they’re willing to bring to you.

[01:04:27] Mm-hmm. That in previous generations, I don’t think the kids would’ve done that because they would’ve felt shamed.

[01:04:32] Megan Hyatt Miller: Right.

[01:04:33] Michael Hyatt: Or they would’ve felt like it was out of bounds.

[01:04:35] Megan Hyatt Miller: Right.

[01:04:35] Michael Hyatt: But they share with you some deep, powerful stuff.

[01:04:38] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah, they do. And I think I’ve had to learn it the hard way, you know, because you just get really shut down as a parent.

[01:04:45] Michael Hyatt: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:45] Megan Hyatt Miller: With, with teenagers and probably young adults to some degree. I feel like my young adults are better than my teenagers. This, but they discount your. Answers very quickly. Yes. Like those are not properly valued in the market of teenagers. And so it’s not a good strategy, even if you’re right. It’s not a good strategy.

[01:05:19] Michael Hyatt: It’s, I also see a lot of application, though we didn’t really talk about it in marriage.

[01:05:26] Megan Hyatt Miller: Yeah, for sure.

[01:05:27] Michael Hyatt: Because I think that, you know, Gail and I have been married for 47 years now, and we’ve evolved to the place where I think we’re really good coaches for each other.

[01:05:36] Megan Hyatt Miller: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:36] Michael Hyatt: You know, and, and mostly because we’re not giving advice and that’s really the hardest relationship to receive advice in.

[01:05:45] Because you just get so familiar with each other that you’re like, oh, okay, I know what she’s gonna say. Yeah. And you like complete each other’s sentences and just,

[01:05:52] Megan Hyatt Miller: it’s like the curse of familiarity.

[01:05:53] Michael Hyatt: Yeah, exactly. And to stay curious and to, to approach it as though, well, maybe I don’t know everything about her.

[01:06:00] Megan Hyatt Miller: Well, especially if you accept the idea that we’re always growing and evolving, or at least we’re evolving in some way forward or backward, I suppose. Yeah. But like, we’re always changing, you know, we’re not, it’s not like you hit 50 years old, for example, and you’re just done at that point. Nothing ever changed, you know?

[01:06:16] Hopefully not.

[01:06:17] Michael Hyatt: The coaching habit is the book. And this is useful for anybody in any situation. It’s a really a book about relationships, but particularly if you’re trying to be helpful to other people as a leader or as a a boss or as a coach, or a therapist or anything,

[01:06:34] Megan Hyatt Miller: mentor.

[01:06:35] Michael Hyatt: Mentor, I just recommend this book to you.

[01:06:37] You’ll enjoy the read. And the one thing I love about his books, and he actually explained it at one of the masterminds that we’re in together about why he writes short books. But, uh, this is a short book. It’s an easy lift and you’ll be delighted as you read it. So you have any final thoughts, Megan?

[01:06:53] Megan Hyatt Miller: No.

[01:06:53] Get the book. You’ll be glad you did.

[01:06:55] Michael Hyatt: Okay. And by the way, you would be a great help to us. If you wanna know how you can help us, it’s to rate and review the podcast. That’ll help us get the visibility up so that even more people are invited into this coersation and can be exposed to the guests that, that we bring to you all.

[01:07:11] So until, again, get the double win.