38. JEFFERSON FISHER: Staying Grounded When Tensions Rise

Episode Transcript

Note: Transcript is AI-generated and may contain errors. Please refer to the episode audio or video for exact quotes.

Jefferson: [00:00:00] When you set out to win an argument, you often will lose the relationship. Like if you only see it as something to win, that means you’re going to lose a lot more.

Michael: Hi, I am Michael Hyatt.

Megan: And I’m Megan Hyatt Miller,

Michael: and you’re listening to The Double Win Show.

Megan: Well, today we have a really fun conversation with our friend Jefferson Fisher. If you don’t know Jefferson Fisher is that guy on Instagram who is a trial attorney who gives you advice on communication. And so if you’re not an Instagram person, you gotta check him out.

Michael: He’s got 5 million social media followers. I mean, it’s like everybody, 5 million

Megan: women across the globe are in love with him. That’s what we know. Including maybe my own mother. I don’t know.

Michael: Well, definitely your own mother, but, but speaking for the men, we really just respect him.

Megan: Yeah. You know, I mean,

Michael: he’s just so amazing.

Megan: He’s so amazing and we got to know him. At a mastermind that we went to in Charleston, hosted by our friend Stu McLaren, for business owners like us. And Jefferson got thrown into the [00:01:00] deep end because he, uh, that’s not his world. And he got to learn a lot about the world he was getting ready to go into because he has recently published a book all about communication called the Next Conversation.

Argue less, talk more. This book is fantastic. You want to get it

Michael: at the time we’re recording this? Yes. It’s been on the New York Times list for three weeks now.

Megan: Yeah, it’s like number five. Yep. As of today on the New York Times list. And he really talks about how can you communicate in ways that ultimately preserve relationships certainly are persuasive, but that preserve relationships.

You know that it’s not just about. Winning. It’s not just about, you know, kind of being the victor at an end of a conversation, but like what do we do with all these stressful, tense conversations that it feels like we find ourselves in more and more? That’s really what this book is all about. So Jefferson has a podcast called the Jefferson Fisher Podcast.

It is the world’s the number one podcast on communication. He has lots [00:02:00] of people on his email list. He is still a practicing trial attorney in Texas. It’s crazy to me. I’m like, where do you find the time, my friend? But most importantly, he is a dedicated father. He has two kids who are five and seven, and he is on a personal mission to bring peace through better communication, which is not the kind of thing you would think a trial attorney would say.

And we get into that. So this is a great conversation. You’re gonna love it. You’re gonna learn a ton of things that you can apply today to your hardest conversations.

Michael: So, and right outta the box, you’re gonna learn why you should never. Win an argument.

Megan: Yeah.

Michael: Here’s Jefferson.

Jefferson, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I’m, I’m honored to be here. I am so excited about this conversation because of course, I. I’ve been reading your book and you’ve put together some things that I didn’t expect, and I guess I kind of thought, well, it’s just gonna be a compilation of his Instagram reels, but it’s not that at all.

I mean, there’s some of that in [00:03:00] there, but it really gives a whole communication construct that I think is enormously helpful. Thank

Jefferson: you very much. I’m really glad to hear you say that. That was the intent. I think there was an expectation that I was just going to simply regurgitate. A lot of my, my videos, but this is where I wanted to tell people, no, there’s an actual science and structure and if you follow this, you don’t need to watch any of my videos.

You can start making your own. That was kind of the point.

Michael: Well, I still think a compilation of all your videos in print form would be, I. Enormously helpful. Kinda like a

Megan: devotional

Michael: or like the physician’s desk reference. There we go.

Megan: We had to like just back up. I know we talked about this a little bit in our intro, but we actually know Jefferson, we got to hang out for a few days and really get to know each other.

In December, yes. Of 2024. We just had so much fun getting to know you and learning about your real life, so to speak. You know your life outside of Instagram. Yeah. Your family, what you do, you know, in your day job, which we’ll talk about here in a second. But [00:04:00] that was really fun, you know, A lot of times it was a times.

Yeah, we did a lot of times, you know, like you know somebody online, then you get to know ’em in person. You’re like secretly like, well, they’re nothing like, you know, they are, but you were like the real deal. Like I feel like if I met you. You know, our kids’ baseball game, they were playing each other like you.

You’re the same person. And I think that’s just a cool thing to say thank you, since probably a lot of people who are talking to you, oh, they don’t know you, you know?

Jefferson: That’s a huge compliment. Thank you. No, we had a lot of fun. I remember laughing, did a whole lot and I can’t believe that was just December.

I mean, that feels like it was, I know

Megan: you’ve lived a whole life since then, my friend.

Jefferson: Yeah. Wow. That goes a lot longer. But no, that was such a fun time.

Megan: You and my husband Joel, ate your weight in oysters at a little, uh, seafood place he did for in South Carolina for sure. Yeah, he definitely did.

Jefferson: I think I ended up watching him.

Megan: I mean, I think he maybe ate 20, all the

Jefferson: oysters,

Megan: maybe more. I don’t know. I mean, we were all like, okay, this is a, this is about to be a world record.

Jefferson: He was definitely over the legal limit. He

Megan: was over the legal limit of. Oysters. Oh yeah. No,

Jefferson: he, he, yeah. Somebody should have stopped him. Yeah. Honestly, that was on the waiter.

He was over served. He was o he was [00:05:00] way

Megan: overserved. I’m just gonna tell you. Yeah. After 16 years of marriage, I just put my hands up. Probably lawsuit lost you there. Yeah,

Jefferson: yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that restaurant should be investigated for. Yeah. Wait, a license, we know Lost you for living. That was uncalled for.

It really was. But no, we had a, we had a, uh, we had a wonderful time. We did, uh, to get to see y’all again.

Megan: Yes. Is,

Jefferson: uh, a true joy.

Michael: Okay. Growing up in Texas. All the family in the biz, just give us the background.

Jefferson: I am a fifth generation trial attorney. I grew up in a small town in southeast Texas. In fact, I still live in that small town where we have biggest stores to Walmart.

That services probably eight different towns and we have a chilies. And so that’s really where we’re at. And I’m the oldest of four, and so I grew up here. I rode the bus. Know what I mean? Like I, I, I walked home from the stop sign that was probably a half a mile. It felt like half a mile. It probably wasn’t that long, but look at [00:06:00] me.

I’m already sounding like my dad. So anyway, barefoot in the snow, both directions. Yeah, I know. All of a sudden, yeah. I need to make it really cold and miserable. Yeah. Yeah.

Megan: Except it’s, uh,

Jefferson: so, so yeah, my dad’s an attorney. His dad’s an attorney. So I grew up around law. Where some kids got picked up, you know, taken to a playground after school or home.

A lot of times I got picked up and dropped to my dad’s deposition where he would finish his deposition because my mom couldn’t pick me up. My dad did whatever the schedule was. They didn’t want me to be home alone for whatever that this was before they just left me at home and. I would just listen to the rest of his, his deposition while I’m doodling on a yellow notepad.

Then it got to me watching his trials in courtrooms and closing arguments. That developed a lot of in my life what I saw and how I saw arguments and how I saw him be very much someone who is more of a diplomat in conversations. My dad is not somebody who’s. Very quick to anger. I have a lot of that same [00:07:00] personality.

My mother is extremely kind and I love being the big brother. Love being the oldest of four. Still do. There’s 11 years difference between me and my youngest brother Jacob, and after college law school. My wife is my high school sweetheart. I. And we have this world now where you go. How, how in the world did he get started in these videos?

Well, I had been working at a law firm for close to 10 years. I had made partner there. Mind you, this is the same law firm where my dad was. I had a lot of different offers at different law firms. I really liked his firm. I still consider his firm one of the, the most prestigious in in our area. And I wanted to do my own thing.

Probably a lot of it was I am, you know, mid twenties, I think I can do everything better, know everything better, and if I was in charge it, I’ll run differently kind of thing. But a lot of it, I just felt creatively stale and so I thought, well, I wanna do my own thing. And when I started my law firm, that was beginning of 2022.

At the same time, [00:08:00] I thought, well, I guess I ought to be on social media. I mean, that’s. Probably a good place to start. Well, how do I do it? I Googled so many things and I first started talking about how to, what to do after a car accident, talk about legal things in my videos, and then I thought, well, this doesn’t feel very good.

It really doesn’t feel very good. I’m just selling myself. By the way, not everybody needs a personal injury attorney. You know, most people don’t. I mean, who, who needs one until you’re hurt. So I thought, well, what’s, what do I, I want my legacy to be? What do I want my kids to remember? I thought, well, I’ll tell people what I know better than anybody in my world, what I can share.

And that’s how to communicate better, how to help their arguments, how to help them communicate. And I started my lessons, my little videos in my car by myself on how to, how to argue like a lawyer, part one. And then after that it just started. Slowly taking off and taking off, and I’m still learning lessons every day.

I, I still [00:09:00] don’t really know what I’m doing, figuring it out.

Megan: I love that.

Jefferson: How

Michael: much of what you teach and talk about and sort of your whole philosophy of communication, did you pick up by osmosis? In other words, did you Yeah. Observe your dad and your grandfather doing these things, like taking a breath, doing a body scan?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing the small talk thing or is that something that you sort of distilled from watching them? A lot of that

Jefferson: is not them. I would say the breath for sure is my dad. They just hadn’t put it in that kind of form. My grandfather is very different than my dad, so my dad takes after his mother, who.

Is much more thoughtful. My grandfather is, he’s pretty quick to rise. He’s hilarious, but he’s a wonderful storyteller. Probably the best storyteller I’ve, I’ve ever been around in my life and probably ever will be. You’re pretty good yourself and no thank you. He’s, he’s just. I’ll never forget when I, the day I was married, [00:10:00] we had a, all the guys rooted together and my grandfather’s just holding court.

I mean, he is just, he has all these young guys and my groomsmen, they’re just enraptured by his stories. He’s has hunting stories for days, and so they’re all just enthralled. They’re like, this guy’s your grandfather. I was like, yeah, uh. Anyway, the question is how do I. How did I get this approach? How did I learn a lot of this stuff?

To me, it’s one, I understand it’s a gift and it’s truly my, my joy, my blessing to share it. It’s something that I believe my parents prayed for. Hmm. And I, I’m not, I will always credit that. Two, I, I have parents that were very intentional in how they handled communication with me. I would say too of, I learned at a very early age, I’m the.

Typical prototype. Oldest. The firstborn, the heavy responsibilities grow up very quickly. We are too. I became responsible. Yeah. There you go. So like when I’m 16, [00:11:00] I’m driving all of my siblings to school. I, I. Have my youngest brother’s spelling words going over those with him asking my younger brother, did he finish his reading assignment, helping Sarah get her backpack together.

Like I might as well have had a minivan full of everything dropping all of my children.

Megan: I did have a minivan, so yeah. Yeah.

Jefferson: Okay, well then there you go. Yeah. Well mine was, uh, it was quickly a suburban same. I inherited the family’s 96, so, but I loved it. I loved it. And so a lot of the, the stuff I talked about in the book, first part of the book, the small talks, the scans, a lot of that’s my own thing that I found and grew and learned in the early part of my career that helped transform me from someone who is trying to prove everything, prove myself, prove this, prove that, prove that that turned into the.

I know who I am. The respect will come later. You don’t have to prove it right now. [00:12:00] You just continue to be consistent. You continue to be disciplined, and that’s where a, all of those things came from.

Michael: I think one of the things that would be good for people to know that if this book is really for anybody that finds themself in a stressful conversation, I don’t know.

Yeah. If you wanna expand that a little bit, but it is definitely that, and I found your whole connection. With nervous system regulation and all that. We’ll talk about that here in a minute. Was fascinating. But you also say in the book, you say never win an argument,

Megan: which is a funny thing to hear from a trial attorney.

I mean, like literally that’s your whole job, right? Is to win. And so it sounds like counterintuitive and I’d love for you to just unpack that for our community,

Jefferson: the never win an argument mindset is something I believe so strongly in because I have seen the opposite. Turn out to be false every single time where you always set out to win.

And there are are books that are titled Win Every Argument. There are [00:13:00] blogs, how to Win every Argument, and I would read those and just shake my head because I just see that as such, just snake oil salesman, just this, how could you possibly try and teach this to people? Because that’s just not real life.

It’s not real life. Even as an attorney. People say, look, you should, don’t you win every argument? No, absolutely not. Nothing’s in a vacuum. As an attorney, I don’t really win arguments. I have facts. I can’t choose my own facts. Then when a client comes in, they have to give me what the problem is. I, and I have to run with that.

I gotta play the cards that are dealt. Same thing with the law. I can’t change the law. I can’t choose which law applies. It’s not like you get a, a choice, a, B, C. D, all the above like you are. Confined to a set of parameters, and you have to do what you can do best, which is advocate for your client [00:14:00] based on the parameters that are set.

And you have a judge, you have a court reporter, you have a bailiff, you have opposing counsel, and you have 12 jurors, or maybe six if you’re in the county court. And it’s up to them, the decision makers to apply what you give to the law under the rules of evidence to come to a decision. Period. You see how many layers there are?

Mm-hmm. It’s not just what I say now. I’ll say there’s a huge power in the influence I have over a jury, and it has little to do with what I say, but it has almost everything to do with how I make them feel, how I carry myself, how I, my client carries him or herself. It is all this micro details. It’s not this big.

The person who comes in. Is grandiose, just slinging thinking. They’re everything. They’re the one that’s going to lose almost every, every time. The person who thinks that they have it all prepared, the person who comes in with the fancy suit, Rolex, [00:15:00] shiny shoes you’ve ever seen that came in in their Mercedes, I’ll show you, that’s an attorney who will lose because it’s not relatable to a jury.

Never is. In fact, I’ll even tell you this, some of the best trial attorneys that I’ve seen, of course they make lots of money. But they also don’t go to court in that vehicle. They have other vehicles that are old and used that they keep, they’ve had their whole life. This is like the vehicle they had

Megan: That’s hilarious when they first started out,

Jefferson: because they don’t want the jury to see it.

And so they won’t wear their fanciest stuff. They will be as normal as they can possibly be because that is relatable. It’s funny how even when you pull into that parking lot in front of the courtroom, you are on display at all times, and so the jurors will watch every move that you make. Wow. So why do you

Michael: say never win in no argument?

Because that, that’s kinda like all this fantasize. Five minutes after we’ve had the argument, we’re like thinking through what we should have said or what [00:16:00] we could have said. Right. Which, by the way goes to the title of the book, but yeah. Yeah. Just back that up a little bit.

Jefferson: Yeah. The question is, do you always wanna win an argument?

When you set out to win an argument, you often will lose the relationship. Like if you only see it as something to win, that means you’re going to lose a lot more. So let’s ask the question of what have you won? Okay. I said the thing that hurts you, the one thing that took it too far. Now you’re leaving the room.

Now you want to hang up the phone. Now you’re the one who’s upset and I’m the one left standing there alone. What have you. Congrats. What have you got? You’ve most likely won to be the first to apologize. Really? That’s, that’s what you want. That’s so true. In relationships especially, you’ve wanted to be the first to apologize.

Yeah. The one who says the thing the last, who has to be the last one, they get the word. Your first step to apologize, congrats, swing away. Like it is just this mentality that we have to have [00:17:00] of being competitive in conversation and heated arguments where you will lose that. You’re gonna lose their respect, you’re gonna lose their trust, and over time you’re gonna lose their relationship.

I mean, who, who wants to be around the person who always has to be right? That is somebody who is lonely. Mm-hmm. And that is somebody who will eventually isolate themselves out because nobody’s gonna want to be around that person. What I teach, and the, the whole thesis of this book is instead of seeing arguments as something to win, you see them as something to unravel.

Meaning we, you’re gonna take the loose ends. Like if I have, there’s a direct string between. And I’m saying, no, you have to go my way. And you’re saying, no, you have to go my way. Well, all that knot does is it gets tighter and tighter, and the harder we pull and the longer we pull. The harder it becomes to undo, the harder it becomes to unravel.

And sometimes it takes a whole day to unravel it. Maybe it takes a [00:18:00] week before emotions die down and you’re willing to look at it. Or sometimes it’s over a year. Some people haven’t spoken to their adult child or their parent and whatever it is. And it happens to the closest of people. Mm-hmm. They haven’t spoken in years.

Because of how tight they made that knot. And so that’s the quicker you are to apologize, the quicker you are to, to start seeing where they’re coming from. That knot never tightens.

Megan: Jefferson, I have to play devil’s advocate for a second. Oh, I

Jefferson: love it.

Megan: Okay, so there are times that you want to persuade someone, you know, maybe there’s a lot at stake.

Maybe there’s something really important that needs to happen. My husband and I are dealing with this right now in an extended family situation, but in a situation where you do wanna persuade somebody. It’s not about winning per se, but you need to move them maybe for their own best interest. First of all, is that valid?

Second of all. Mm-hmm. How is that different from like winning an [00:19:00] argument and do you help people learn how to be more persuasive but in a way that ultimately is good for a relationship?

Jefferson: Yeah, great question. Winning has to do with, I’m the last one standing and you know I have won.

Mm-hmm.

Jefferson: That’s very different from we need to take action.

I need your cooperation or I need you to understand and I need to connect with you on the action that’s going to be taken. Winning says, I have no respect really for your feelings. I have no respect for your point of view. I’m willing to say whatever it takes for you to go away.

That’s a good point.

Jefferson: As you know, that has the, the fight or flight.

It’s this mindset of I am going to be the king of the the rock. The person that’s left here, I’m the one that is Right. You are the one that is wrong. Got it. That’s winning the mindset of we have a choice to make and either you’re gonna be with me on this choice [00:20:00] or you’re not. Either way, it’s gonna be fine with me.

I’m still gonna respect you. I’m still gonna understand you. I’m still gonna hear your opinion like my dad would put it to me this way. Growing up, if I disagreed with something, um, I, let’s say I’m 17. A lot of things, I think I know the way of the world and I would disagree with what he’d say. Anytime I would complain, he’d say, well, you don’t have to like it, you just gotta understand it.

I mean, it, it would be his like way of telling me. You know, Hey, you feel free to disagree. This is what we’re gonna do. And so it was such a good lesson. Now, I didn’t appreciate it. I can promise you that. But now I have the hindsight of saying he gave me the freedom to disagree and it took all the fight out of it.

Yeah, it was. I’m giving you a chance to connect with me. I’m giving you a chance to understand. Where we’re going, and that’s the key with connection, is you can, I can still disagree with you and still connect with you. I can still be unhappy, I can still be [00:21:00] mad at you and still connect with you. So if you need to come to a mutual decision.

That’s very different. That is more of a coordinated dance.

Hmm.

Jefferson: Where there’s going to be an exit from this, A win of an argument says I’m pushing you out of it. Very different. Yeah.

Very

Jefferson: different. Very helpful.

Michael: It’s interesting to me that you started with control. And you really dive into nervous system regulation and explaining that, and it’s something, frankly, we’ve had guests on to talk about that and we’ve done a lot of fair amount of study ourselves on that, but I never considered it in the context of communication.

Yeah.

Michael: Which is kind of odd because I. It’s like probably the most important thing, which I’m, I guess that’s why you started with at first, but can you unravel that?

Jefferson: Yeah. Nice. Unravel word like that. The, the whole point of why rule number one in the book is say it with control is because if you do not have control, well [00:22:00] then none of the rest matters.

Yeah.

Jefferson: Really true. Doesn’t matter how. Quick of a statement. I could give you a twist of the word. A way to reframe, it doesn’t matter. A lick if you do not have control. And what people are so quick to forget is that you are in complete control of the pace of the conversation. And I say that because I train, I prepare hundreds of clients for their deposition.

And they get into this mentality of, well, if this person’s asking me a question, this attorney’s asking me a question, I need to have a rapid fire response, or I, I need to be on the ready or anything. And I have to continually remind them and say, no, no, no, no. Listen, you are in control of the conversation.

They can’t ask a question faster than you can respond to it. There is nothing that they can do, nothing they can do to make you respond. Faster. Do you understand that? There’s [00:23:00] nothing anybody can do to force you to say something, force you to speak. It is all within your timeframe and timetable. And the sooner that people understand that, almost innately, the more in control they feel of themselves of, you can ask me a question.

I can choose to not answer it at all. I can choose to answer it in five seconds. I can choose anything that I want, but it’s that pause that you can throw in there that truly is a, a game changer in all of your communication, but you have to say it with control.

Michael: What is the value of that? If you go at the other person’s pace and sort of the natural trajectory of an argument?

What’s at stake there versus doing it the way you’re talking about putting a pause in.

Jefferson: When you don’t put in a pause and you add, don’t add your breath. When you don’t say it with control, you end up reacting rather than responding. It’s just your, your natural fight or flight will take over and you’re [00:24:00] gonna start responding more emotionally.

So the attorneys will do this thing where we will start to ask questions faster and you’ll start to respond faster. That means you’re thinking about your. Your answer less, which means I’m probably getting the answer I want from you. And so whenever I can get you in this rhythm, the yes no, okay? I don’t know.

Like it’s faster I can get you in that rhythm. The more I got you, the more I know I can lead you where I want to lead you. The person, the the client, or the the witness. I need to cross examine if I ask them a question. They immediately go, yes. Yeah, no, that’s, yeah, I think that’s true. Yes. That quickness like, okay, they’re not listening, but the witness who goes, yeah, I, I think so.

I think so. That right there, I’m like, oh dang. Okay. This is somebody who I can’t do anything with. It doesn’t matter what I say. They’re going to [00:25:00] actually listen. To what I’m asking them. And it’s the same thing when I’m the one questioning the other attorney or I’m seeing another attorney. If there’s another attorney who’s asking questions and he’s rapid fire, sometimes he’s not really thinking of what, hearing what the witness is saying ’cause he is looking down at his next question.

Right. Same thing with like people who interview, they’re not really listening to the person they’re looking at. They’re worried of like, what’s gonna be my next question? Yep. Attorneys do that too. I know it’s a good attorney if they have their notes and they just push them off to the side and they’re just looking at my witness.

You know, they’re taking their time before question. Like, dang, okay. They’re, they’re, they’re really, they’re locked in. Yeah. They’re, there’s somebody that you already know, you, uh, you better be on your game.

Yeah.

Michael: So it seems like in a personal relationship too, it just really keeps it from escalating because once you get into that fight or flight thing Yeah.

It spirals outta control.

Megan: I had this actually happen recently. I was in a conversation in a professional conversation and it started to escalate and it was kind of one of those things where it’s like you’re, you’re sort of having an out of body experience in your [00:26:00] head, like. What’s happening right now?

Like what I said this. Mm-hmm. But why is the other person responding like that? And I was on the more regulated end, but I was feeling myself kind of escalate and I thought to myself in my own head, okay, wait a second. We are now in a place of fight or flight in this conversation. Like the other person is not even hearing what I’m saying, is not able to respond.

Mm-hmm. Like something else has gotten triggered here. And I realized I need to be the co-regulation of. I need to slow my voice down. I need to make sure. Mm-hmm. I’m breathing and relaxing my body, and I need to talk in ways that are very intentionally non-threatening because we’re not even talking about what we’re talking about anymore, you know?

Mm-hmm. But it was like just such an interesting moment of like. The kindest thing that I can do in this situation. ’cause it really wasn’t an argument between us, it was just, it was about something else was to take control of the situation by getting myself regulated so I could let them sort of borrow that regulation that they couldn’t [00:27:00] access in that moment.

You know? And that was, that was kind of a profound realization of it’s not, it’s not just being in control for my own sake, for to be more persuasive or to. Just my kind of maintain my own equilibrium. Mm-hmm. But sometimes, you know, people can get triggered in conversations for reasons that really don’t have anything to do with you.

They need your help. Oh my goodness. Yeah. You know?

Jefferson: Yeah. Even to your point, the mutual benefit.

Mm-hmm.

Jefferson: The double benefit of the pause before you say anything, what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. Mm-hmm. When love you do take the pause. The other benefit is not only does it calm yourself down, it calms the other person down.

Yeah. So sometimes I might pause before I say something, not so much to even control what I say. It’s. To make the other person slow down. Yeah. Because when you can tell they’re getting triggered, they’re getting worked up, they’re starting to raise their voice, and when you add in that space. They understand [00:28:00] and they hear that they’re gonna have to come down to match my energy.

Megan: Yeah,

Jefferson: that’s gonna always equal a much better conversation.

Megan: By the way, this works with toddlers too.

Jefferson: Oh yeah. If you have

Megan: young kids, you’re doing this all the time, or either positively or negatively. But you know, I’ve had this moment so many times with my own kids. You have to be the one to regulate the conversation down.

’cause my gosh, if you follow them, you’re gonna be on the floor kicking and screaming like they’re Oh. Before you know it.

Michael: That’s so true. Yeah. With regard to control, you kinda have that three-part framework, right? Starts with the breath. One of the things that I find is difficult is I can be swept up into an argument and very self unaware of what’s happening, but you’ve got a way to prevent against that, that you talk about in small talk.

So. Could you unpack that? Yeah.

Jefferson: These little things I call small talks, there’s nothing fancy to it. It’s simply a, a talk that you have with your yourself. If there’s one person you should know better than anyone should be yourself, [00:29:00] and that’s a statement in of itself. You know, you doing, doing that on inner work.

But small talks are these phrases that begin with a verb that help ground you in conversation. And it started with, I was in trial. I would write things at the top of my notepad that would ground me. And these are little things like you be Jefferson or let the facts speak for themselves. Little things that would help.

Center me in conversation. Now, I’m not saying every person in every conversation is like, well, I, I need to have this granola woo-hoo moment where I, you know, have this, this, this, uh, enlightenment before I have this conversation. No, it’s just, it’s something short and simple. You want to begin with a verb?

Maybe it’s as simple as be assertive or stand up straight or stand firm or be still little things that you can say to yourself when you [00:30:00] feel you’re coming undone. Everybody has these arguments where all of a sudden you feel. Unsteady. I feel like I’m spiraling. I feel like I’m coming unraveled these moments where it’s, it’s not great, and these small talks are just something to help guide you.

One of my favorites is a, uh, a client that I had. She’s so sweet and she was always very timid. But her grandmother was not. Her grandmother name was, uh, Doris, and she’d get all sassy. She’d say she’d get she, she had no problem telling somebody what she thought. And whenever she would get on a terror, her husband, my client’s grandfather would say, you tell ’em Doris.

You tell him, Doris, that would be the, their line. I can already see it. Like he’s got his paper not even looking up at her and she’s going on about something he’d say, you, you tell her Doris, yeah, you got it. That that was her. That was her small talk is so whenever she felt like, no, no, you know what? I do need to say something.

I’m not gonna just say yes or okay when that’s just not [00:31:00] the truth. And so that was her small talk. You tell ’em Doris,

Megan: that’s hilarious. What a great story.

Michael: Well, I think it goes to the fact that we need to be more thoughtful. These conversations, particularly the ones that are high stake and there’s a lot of stress around it, or we have a lot of history, you know, of conflict in that relationship.

But I can think of one relationship that I have where unfortunately it devolves into political conflict and so much so that I said at one point I’m, we’re just never gonna talk about politics again because it’s just too nerve wracking.

Jefferson: Yeah.

Michael: I think there’s a way to have that conversation and, and in fact we have had a couple of subsequent conversations where it’s been easier ’cause I think that both of us have been more mindful of that.

Jefferson: Yeah. Being thoughtful is such an important concept for any conversation, especially the, the difficult ones. Political arguments, political conversations tend to be so, because we tie them to the collective, we believe [00:32:00] that there is a good side and a bad side. Mm-hmm. And we don’t say there’s a good side and a good side.

One is bad, one is good, and the bad side is never ours. And we want to tie them to a bigger picture of, no, this is the one that’s winning. And the other says, no, this is a side that’s winning. Is there ever a finish line? Is there ever a win? No. And nothing. It’s always gonna continue to go on. But I think some of it too is people desperately wanna feel important and they wanna feel right.

And you add that with people who mostly talk politics like my grandfather and his brother. Could not be any polar opposite on the political spectrum. And they do this thing where, I’m not kidding. Daily, they’ll get in a, a shouting match over politics that will never touch their life. Understand nothing that’s happening in politics is ever gonna touch them.

It’s not gonna change a bit about their world. It doesn’t matter at all. [00:33:00] They’re just home all day. Thinking of things to grappl about and they will get to arguing with each other. And then they hang up. They hang up on each other. They get, they get so mad, they hang up and by the afternoon they call again and then they’re just as happy as could be.

And they don’t talk politics at all. And so, but I think some of it too, of, especially older generations, they just wanna feel like something matters and they want to feel like they, they can get up in arms about something. I see this a lot, like older attorneys. They may not have that many clients, but when I have them in hearings, boy, they can just be mean.

And it’s because you have to just kinda let ’em go because they’re trying to feel alive in that moment. They’re trying to feel like something they say is matters, and I have an opinion, and by God I’m gonna share that opinion. It’s the only opinion that matters and they can’t really back it up, but who cares?

And so I think that is exactly right. Being thoughtful in conversations is I. [00:34:00] Incredibly important, and knowing that when you can control yourself is the first step, because you can’t control anything else about what they are doing. You can’t control, uh, a thing of it. You can only, you can only control yourself trying to bring them to match your energy.

Hmm.

Jefferson: One of

Michael: the things I have learned after raising five daughters. My wife, so six very important women. You didn’t really

Megan: raise her though. I

Michael: didn’t raise her. She raised me to be truth told. But at any rate, one of the things I’ve noticed, and they’ve maybe noticed this about too, me too, is that when they’re upset, if I will just hold space to hear them out, it will burn out.

Jefferson: Yeah. I love that when people say, hold space or really mean, just be quiet. Yeah. Just shut up. It’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I love the visual of, I’m just holding this space for you. I’m, I’m here, I’m present. This is a safe place. We got this in practice. It just means, I’m not saying a word. Yeah. It means I am going to listen without trying to solve it, [00:35:00] without trying to say, well, what you need to do is like any of that, you can just throw that out the window when you can simply listen.

Easier said than done. You know what? I try to teach my kids and we have a way of handling arguments in my house. Whenever somebody is upset about something, you have to let them get it all out. It’s this visual love. There’s no way I could pour new thoughts into a glass that’s already full. You gotta let it, let them pour it all out before they’ll ever be willing to accept anything that you say.

And that’s particularly true with changing anyone’s mind. You’re not gonna change somebody’s mind in two sentences and say, oh, what an idiot. How could you possibly think that? That’s never gonna get them to change their mind. They’re never gonna say, oh, you’re so right. I am such an idiot. What? What did you say?

Oh yes, that’s correct. Like, nobody’s gonna ever say that. So whenever you can. And nobody can do it [00:36:00] over one conversation. It’s typically it, it might take conversation after conversation over six months of our year before you can change somebody’s mind.

Megan: Okay. I have two questions. The one I was planning to ask and then something you said that got me really interested.

So, okay, I’ll start with the, the second one. I wanna know how you handle arguments in your own house. And I bet our community does too. And then the second question is, you talk about this idea of having goals and values, like going into conversations. So tell us about that. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, we love a goal and we love a conversation.

Yeah. So let’s put ’em together. Sure. But first, tell us how you handle it at your house.

Jefferson: Yeah. There’s exceptions for everything. Uh, but we have what we call house rules. And that is if my kids are arguing now they’re five and seven. All right. But if they’re arguing. Number one, I let them argue. I, I don’t try to stop it.

I try to let them argue because I, I truly think it’s a wonderful training ground for them to be able to express [00:37:00] themselves and to try it. So, I mean, they’re stretching the limits of what they can say and what they can’t say. Now, these rules mean you cannot say anything about their intelligence or say anything like a personal attack.

You can’t say someone’s stupid. You can’t say someone’s anything that is harmful in that way. You can’t put them down. It’s more of a prove your point. And so we’ll also sometime have these debriefs of, okay, Ruby, you know my daughter’s Ruby, so what are you trying to say? Okay. Will you hear how you just said that to him?

Yeah. Okay. Well you hear how, what do you think he’s gonna think about that? He’s not gonna like it. Okay. And so like trying to teach. How they’re gonna construct their argument. My son is much better at it than my daughter. One, he’s older. Two, he’s like a mini me, uh, and she is my mini wife. And so sometimes I have to be like, jet, I know what you’re doing.

’cause he can be like, if he wants to get something, he’ll come at it multiple different ways. I’m like, man, you think I don’t know what you’re doing. [00:38:00] But the best thing about it is using that as a, as a place for them to. Express. Like if my son wants something, I’ll say, tell me why. Tell me why I should say yes.

I do that a lot. He might want me to do something and typically it’s right before bed. Of course. Of

course, of course.

Jefferson: And I’ll say, tell me why I should say yes to this. And I never allow them just to say, well, because, because I want you to, I, my, that’s not a good reason. I need, I need you to tell me why.

Convince me. And it’s a great way to get them to think outside the box and. The one my favorites that he landed on was, well, you don’t want me to be sad because I’m your son and if you don’t do this well, I think I’m gonna be really sad. And like when he said that, I was like, okay, that’s fair. Every once in a while they’ll say something so good that I’m like, you know what I.

Game respects game. You know, I, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta allow it to you. ’cause that was a really good argument. Yeah. It’s teaching them the right way and the wrong way to try and persuade to get your [00:39:00] point across. How do you communicate?

Megan: Love that. Yeah. That’s fantastic.

Jefferson: Yeah. And you say, okay, how do you add these to the values and how do you show up?

What I believe in is that you need to have conversational values, meaning principles that you guide yourself. When things go unexpectedly in conversation and they, they work the same way as a company Value, company decisions become easier when there’s a company. Value. Values make the decisions for you.

One of the principles of my law firm is biblical. It’s feed his sheep. That’s the commandment. And so. I don’t care if it doesn’t make money. I don’t care if this is not the right client for financial success. It’s this idea of does it fit with our value? Is it going to, does it support our mission? If the answer is yes, then that’s what we’re going to do.

Same thing with a conversational value, and my mom taught me kindness, and so one of my values is, or there is kindness. I will use it. If there is room for kindness, I will use it. I don’t have to worry [00:40:00] about. The snarky thing. I’m gonna say right back. I’m not gonna have to worry about the zinger. The question, is there room for kindness?

If the answer’s yes, then I’ll show it and I’ll use it Just becomes easier.

Michael: Okay. I wanna talk shift and talk about confidence. You said in the book, this is the most common question you get. How could I be more confident?

Yeah. Huh.

Michael: And I thought you had some surprising and very practical. Advice for that.

Jefferson: Yeah. I get the question a lot. How do you, how can I be more confident? And people see it as something you need to have before a conversation.

Mm-hmm. Well, I’m just building up the confidence to say this where, oh, I wish I had the confidence to say X, Y, and z. They got it wrong. This is the wrong way to look at it. It’s the exact opposite. Confidence is the outcome. Confidence is the reward. Confidence is the consequence of doing the assertive thing.

So what I teach is [00:41:00] confidence is as assertive. Does.

Mm love that. Which

Jefferson: it’s kind of that Forrest Gump stupid is stupid does kind of thing. This mentality of when you say the assertive thing, when you can use your assertive voice, the result is confidence. ’cause confidence is a feeling. It comes from something.

If I were to say, I need you to be mad at me right now. You’d have a hard time getting mad at me. If I kick you in your shin, you have no problem being mad at me. It comes from something. So confidence is not something you can just summon, go. I need to be more confident and I got it. And now I wanna say the thing.

It doesn’t work like that. It’s using your assertive voice to feel more confident.

Michael: You talk about over apologizing in that context. Could you explain or give us some examples of what it would look like? To be assertive versus hesitation or over apologizing.

Jefferson: Really, three main things when it comes to sounding and being and using your assertive [00:42:00] voice.

Number one is removing or cutting down on the excessive apologizing. That’s when you say, I’m sorry. Every single sentence. When you say, let’s say you got an email that you haven’t responded to right away. Hey, I’m so sorry. I’m just now getting back to you. Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. I’m just now seeing this.

You cut in line by accident. Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. Like you, you’re two minutes late to a meeting. I’m so sorry I’m late. Every time you have these unnecessary apologies, meaning you are apologizing for something that is not an error, it is not a mistake. It is not something like you have. You truly made a big problem.

What it’s doing is slowly cutting down on your, your self-esteem and your so forth. Instead, just flip it to words of gratitude. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for giving me the time to respond to this. I’m grateful for the time to think on this. Thank you for X, Y, and Z. Let’s put it in a, an email.

Let’s see. I haven’t responded to somebody’s email in three, three days instead of the. So sorry, I’m just now getting back to this. I’ve just been so [00:43:00] swamped and so busy, and I just have so many other priorities aside from you. Like that right there. Okay. Instead of that, all you need to do is say, thank you for the time to think on this.

And they’re gonna say, oh yeah, you’re welcome. I am. They’re gonna say thank you for your patience. They’re gonna think, all right, you’re so right. I am patient. Yes, I am. Oh, you’re so welcome. Right? Instead, just use words of gratitude. Just words of gratitude instead of over apologizing. Two would be cutting down on your words, meaning I’d say something like, I hate to bother you, but um, or this might be a dumb question, but you know, every time you do that, you’re just conveying the exact opposite of the message.

In fact, you’re inserting this mini conversation about your. Self-esteem, like right in between it. If somebody says, Hey, I hate to bother you, what do they say? They’re gonna say, oh, you’re not bothering me. And then you have to be like, I’m not bothering you are. Are you sure? And like, no, no, no, you’re not bothering me.

Oh, okay. And all they think of when you’re now talking is, God, this bothers me like this. That’s all they think [00:44:00] about. Same thing with the dumb question. You say, this is gonna be a dumb question. What’s the answer everybody says. There’s no such thing as a dumb question. And then they have to go, oh, oh, okay.

Well let me ask this question. And then all it sounds like when you’re asking is, this is the dumbest question I’ve ever heard. So it’s just you’re cutting down on your own, your own self-esteem. Don’t, don’t do that. You just. Remove it. And in fact, instead of cutting away from it, just add onto it. You say, I’d like to build on something of this thought or I’d like to add onto.

People love that kind of language because it adds onto your experience, adds onto the conversation. One thing that I’ve been thinking about, one thing I’d like to add, any of that kind stuff is going to build onto the conversation and lastly, you want to take away or at least minimize the use of adverbs.

Words that end in LY, like literally, basically. Essentially, or just or so, or bakery. These are words that water down your drink. If [00:45:00] I said nothing, but literally I have a, one of my best friends, he begins with. So basically almost every sentence. I’ll say, Matt, what’s the basic part? And he’ll laugh because we’ve talked about this.

I’m trying to keep him accountable for it. But people who say clearly he clearly didn’t, or obviously if it was clearly, or obviously you wouldn’t have to, you wouldn’t have to say it. So those are some things that could help your assertive voice.

Megan: I love that so much because it’s so practical. Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, we can all find ourselves.

Those recommendations, literally we can literally, yeah, literally very much so identify with that. But I, I love that. It’s just, it’s actionable. We can just go do it and it’s not some kind of philosophical statement. So I think that that’s helpful.

Jefferson: There’s a difference between like somebody saying easy sentence, like, I want to increase the budget period.

Or somebody saying. This is what we typically hear. So basically what I’m thinking is, and you can totally tell me if [00:46:00] I’m, I’m wrong, but, uh, so like, and, and, and, and maybe we, you going, what are we saying? What are we doing here? What are, what are we saying? Yeah. So it’s, it’s much harder to filter it out, sift it out to get the actual message.

Megan: We call that in our house, word salad. It just, ooh, it just feels like chopped salad. Like, what are these words? There’s a lot of words here, but I don’t really know what they mean, and they just all sort of feel mixed up. Yeah. I love this point about confidence being the reward. I will often say to clients, confidence is not a prerequisite for taking the action that you need to take.

And the idea of taking assertive action that you’re talking about to me is, is a relief because it’s like, oh. I don’t have to gin up this feeling of confidence that I really have no idea how to access, which it feels sort of like it just magically happens sometimes and sometimes it doesn’t. That’s not a necessary prerequisite for doing the thing that needs to be done.

And on the one hand, that means you sort of have to come to grips with. I have to do this thing scared. Sometimes I have to have a conversation. Yeah, that [00:47:00] feels scary, but it also means it’s in your control instead of sort of like waiting for the fairy dust to be sprinkled on you, at which point you are now qualified to go forth and have this conversation that you don’t wanna have.

I love that because I, I wish someone would’ve told me when I was a kid. You know, ’cause I think I always thought, oh, when we see people taking assertive action, they look confident. And so we assume, mm-hmm. That they are confident. You know, I had a, I don’t know if I told you this when we were in Charleston.

I don’t think I did, but I used to have a debilitating fear of public speaking. And part of the reason that I had that fear is I wrongly assumed that all the people that I saw up on stage. Just loved it and were naturally great at it. Like they just rolled out of bed one day when they were 10 years old and they were just like made to keynote and they never felt nervous about it.

Little did I know, everybody feels nervous. It’s part of what makes you good at it. Yeah. Once you get up there, it’s fine. You know, like all these things. I had to test it. I tested it in front of 800 people, by the way, for the first time. So, you know, go big or go home. [00:48:00] Um, but it was great. She

Michael: did great.

Megan: It was great exposure therapy to realize, oh, I get the reward of feeling confident after I did.

The brave, assertive action, it was not necessary before. Not only was it not gonna happen, but it just wasn’t necessary, and I think that’s such great news for people.

Jefferson: Yeah. It’s this idea of most people are confident because they’ve been there before.

Megan: Right. They’ve done it before. Right.

Jefferson: You’re not catching ’em the first time they’ve ever done it.

That’s right.

Megan: Exactly.

Michael: Well, listen, before we wrap up with our three questions, the book is called The Next Conversation. Less talk more. You guys definitely need to buy a copy of this. I bought copies for all my clients and it was fun to get their response. In fact, you commented Jefferson when you saw US edition out.

I did. Yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah, happy to do it, but I just know it’s gonna be so helpful to him. But why did you call it. The next conversation.

Jefferson: People often say the wrong thing in the first conversation. That’s so true. We tend as humans to get it wrong. We, we tend to muck [00:49:00] it up and it’s the next conversation that truly has the power to change everything.

If you and. If that other person, everything always goes wrong. You say the wrong thing. You can change everything by simply what you decide to say next. And the same thing applies with wherever you want to be in your life. The truth of it is, Michael, if people watch my videos not to change what’s happened in the past, they watch the videos to change what they say next.

It’s not the conversation in the past they’re trying to fix. It’s the next one. And that’s why I named it the next conversation that they, they can use these tools, these tips for handling the next conversation, which is gonna make their life a lot better in exchange, improve their relationships. Well, a

Megan: great explanation.

Jefferson: This

Michael: is a book. For families. It’s a book for people in the workplace, but buy multiple copies. Give it to everybody, you know? What a better world we’d have.

Yeah.

Michael: Both in our families and at [00:50:00] work and the political arena and everything else. Oh, don’t be star in the political arena. You know, if we actually had healthy conversations in this book.

Can help you do that. Okay. So we have this concept of the double win, winning at work and succeed at life. Okay. That’s our whole thing. So for you, what’s your biggest obstacle, especially in this time of busyness to, uh, getting the double win?

Jefferson: Making sure my yeses and nos are balanced. Like I see it as like a, a seesaw.

Mm-hmm. And so that to me is my. Success with my life, my family, my work as a dad, as a husband, and I need to make sure my yeses and my nos are balanced. If I have too many yeses, something else is gonna suffer. I have too many nos, something else is gonna suffer. So it’s, that doesn’t mean I’m just gonna say I’m gonna count them.

It’s, it’s not quantitative in some way. It’s maybe it’s a very big yes. And that means I have to have small nos. And so there’s, uh, that’s how I see it in my brain. Love. It’s, I don’t think we ever had anybody share that. We haven’t. That [00:51:00] that sounds great.

Megan: Yeah. That’s great. Okay, next question. How do you know when you are winning at work and succeeding at life?

Jefferson: When you can walk in and you smile naturally. Yeah. Uh, when you just, you feel like you walk in and you naturally feel enthusiastic. It’s not even maybe so much enthusiastic, but there’s nothing that you feel like you are dreading. I, I compare to running with a parachute on. Okay. I, you feel like you have the win in your face and you’re really running and going and pursuing, or do you feel like you’re dragging?

Megan: Yeah.

Jefferson: Really good.

Michael: Okay. Final question. What’s one ritual? Or routine that helps you do what you do?

Jefferson: Oh, well, I’d say prayers. I definitely daily prayer. Aside from that, I really try to do my workouts and my breathing. I didn’t learn until more recently in life, certainly more recently than I wished, how much our body plays a fact in our stress and our anxiety and how that [00:52:00] impacts our outlook on things.

And so if I can get my body moving. Drinking more water and really focused on my breathing. ’cause I didn’t notice later that I, I’ll hold my breath when I’m stressed.

Yeah.

Jefferson: And that, that definitely weighs, I mean, it’s like you’re truly suffocating.

Mm-hmm.

Jefferson: So, realizing that I need to work on my breath.

There’s a, it’s a great ritual.

Megan: What is your go-to workout?

Jefferson: Oh, so I used to sing called a tonal.

Megan: Yeah.

Jefferson: Oh my gosh. The thing that hangs on the wall and has all the

Megan: little stuff on it.

Jefferson: Yeah,

Megan: yeah,

Jefferson: yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have a, I mean, remember small town? We have one gym. Um, the Weights Nut gym are so rusted and everybody’s there.

It’s fine. It just, it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s like, I need to. It takes time for me to drive there, make sure I’m back in time for the kids. We have early morning, blah, blah, blah. This tone was awesome and uh, it’s, I’ve had more progress on that. Than anything. I can look that up. Yeah, I’m not familiar with it.

Megan: That’s cool.

Jefferson: Yeah, I like, and you can just do it right there in your, [00:53:00] in your home. So

Megan: yeah, I’m,

Jefferson: I’m a

Michael: big fan. Awesome.

Megan: Great.

Michael: Jefferson, thank you so much for spending this time with us. I think this has been enormously helpful and I’m a big fan of the book. I hope you sell a gazillion copies. Thank you.

Jefferson: Thank you very much. Uh, I think we’re three weeks on the, the list so far. So we’re

Michael: very excited. That’s exciting. I checked last night and it was number five. I think on the New York Times list, which is no small thing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Very blessed. I’m very excited. Well, I hope I

Jefferson: get to see y’all soon.

Megan: Yeah.

Jefferson: Hoping I get up to Tennessee here

Megan: in a little bit.

Jefferson: Great. We’ll, call us. We’d love to see you. We’ll

Megan: eat more oysters together.

Jefferson: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Better alert the, the fire department. That’s right. All right, cool. Thanks buddy. Bye guys.

Michael: Okay. I feel like I need to reread the book about four or five more times. Yeah. ’cause man, I just, I have a hard time remembering this stuff in the heat of the battle. [00:54:00] But I know that when I do, it really works. Like that whole tip about just taking a beat.

Yeah. Just

Michael: letting your pause or your breath be your first word.

It, it’s easier to remember because the way that he frames it.

Megan: Mm-hmm.

Michael: But it’s so important.

Megan: It’s really

Michael: important. I, I can remember when Will Guera was on our show. Yes. And did you remember how thoughtful he was?

Megan: Yes. And you know the other person who’s like that is Brene Brown. Like if you’ve, she’s not really podcasting, I don’t think anymore.

But when she was podcasting, if you listen to her. In an interview, and often her guests would ask her a question.

Hmm.

Megan: And she would say frequently something like, Hmm, I gotta think about that for a minute. And then she would pause and you’re like, Brene, are you still there? Like, did something happen? You know, because she would almost awkwardly pause for an extended period of time, but then she would come back with a really thoughtful answer.

And I remember thinking at the time, I need to learn from that. What a great discipline to have.

Michael: One of the things he talks about in the book, I mean, [00:55:00] this is how nuanced it is, he says, you can have different links of pauses for different situations. You know, a one to four second pause is different than a five to eight second pause, and it communicates something.

Totally different.

Megan: Yeah.

Michael: But Jefferson’s very self-aware and he really pays a lot of attention to the nonverbal part of communication, which all of us have learned, you know, is the most significant part of it.

Yeah. But

Michael: to me, I’ve never read a book that was more practical. Mm-hmm. In terms of what you actually do in these situations to keep from, you know, igniting and overreacting.

Escalating the argument. So I just love the book so much.

Megan: It made me think, I wish he would do a conference and pull people up there, you know, and have ’em role play, because I think that would be so powerful to just see where we go wrong and catch ourselves in real time. You know that that could be a really helpful, well

Michael: just hit like it on that.

I thought when he was talking, I thought what I’d like to see similar to that is a bootcamp.

Megan: Right

Michael: where you [00:56:00] go and he has a whole bunch of certified coaches that work with you and you role play.

Megan: Yeah.

Michael: Until you get it down.

Megan: Jefferson, we have your business all figured out. Yeah. We got

Michael: your business all figured out.

So you could imagine, for example, one of those four couples.

Megan: Yeah. Like if you’d

Michael: had this at the beginning of your marriage

Megan: would’ve been so helpful. It would’ve been

Michael: so helpful because we literally did everything wrong. And the only reason that we’re still together is ’cause we stumbled into a lot of this stuff,

Megan: not the two of us in case you’re just new to the show father.

And. But yes. Although that would’ve been helpful for father and daughter too. Oh,

Michael: it sure would’ve been. Anybody. Anybody.

Megan: You know, one of the things that made me think about was how, when Joel and I got married, and he has said this for as recently as you know, a week ago for him, kind of his rule of relationships is kindness.

Like in conversations. Mm-hmm. With me in particular. And that has really impacted how we relate to each other and how we avoid. Damaging conflicts. Of course we still have [00:57:00] conflict, but he always will come back to a place of kindness and will choose to not try to win. And it has diffused so many things for us over the years.

He is honestly better at it than I am a lot. It’s so good and I think it’s unusual and I, I think Jefferson’s advice on that is spot on.

Michael: You know who I’ve learned a lot from is your sister Mary. Mm-hmm. I feel like she’s really good in, uh, these situations and probably ’cause she’s. Blown it in the past like all of us have.

Right.

Michael: But she’s really been AST student of it.

Yeah.

Michael: And she’s coached me on this some and it’s been helpful.

Mm-hmm.

Michael: But man, this is the textbook and I hope he does take all those Instagram videos where he gives you those short little videos and I would love a desktop reference,

Megan: like with little tabs that you could just flick to.

Yeah.

Michael: So it’s like I’m about to go into a high stakes conversation with a narcissist that I could, you know, kinda look at the trip wires and the mistakes. Yeah. That would be avoid. So, yeah, I don’t know that that many narcissists, but you know, when I do,

Megan: when you do, you really do, you know [00:58:00] there’s, you need a special playbook, they fill up the room.

Yeah, they, they certainly do. Well, this is a fantastic book by a fantastic guy and everybody needs to read it. Yep. I didn’t ask him, but I don’t know if he reads the book. Himself. He does. He does. Okay, great. Well, he has such a great, he have listen to the audio too. He has such a great voice. So that would even be extra fun.

Michael: Okay. The next conversation, argue less, talk more. Jefferson Fisher. Wherever better books are sold, guys, it would be an enormous help to us if you would review the show. And if not that, just rate it, that helps too. But it’ll help us to get the word out. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.