60. JON ACUFF: Turn Intention into Action

Episode Transcript

Note: Transcript is AI-generated and may contain errors. Please refer to the episode audio or video for exact quotes.

[00:00:00] Jon: And that’s the challenge to me about modern procrastination is the world’s really good at taking what you just described and going, “Well, here’s an alternative feeling to feel, and we’ve, you know, we’ll give you this exit.”

[00:00:14] Michael: Hi, I’m Michael Hyatt.

[00:00:15] Megan: And I’m Megan Hyatt Miller.

[00:00:16] Michael: And you’re listening to The Double Win Show, where we believe you can win at work and flourish in life.

[00:00:22] And today, we’re talking to John Acuff. And some of the most accomplished people we know are also expert procrastinators. They lead teams, they hit deadlines, they fill their mornings with good habits, while the book, the friendship, the health goal, or the hard things just are left undone. And John Acuff calls it someday what you could be today.

[00:00:49] John Acuff, if you don’t know him, is a New York Times bestselling author. He’s the author of Finish and Soundtracks and host of the All It Takes Is a Goal podcast, and his new book, Procrastination Proof: Never Get Stuck Again, argues that the way forward begins with permission. And today, we’re gonna talk about all that and more.

[00:01:10] We had a great conversation. John’s a longtime friend, and so let’s get to it

[00:01:19] Megan: John, welcome to the show

[00:01:20] Jon: Thanks for having me again. Looking forward to it.

[00:01:22] Michael: Glad you’re here.

[00:01:23] Megan: We’re so excited that you’re here. In fact, we barely could get started because we had so much catching up to do. It was so fun. We were like, “Oh, wait, we’re actually here to record a podcast. We better, we better do this.”

[00:01:31] Jon: 17 minutes of chitchat, which is- It’s so great … you can judge a friendship based on that. If you get right- That’s right … to the podcast in 11 seconds, you’re like, “Oh, this is a business transaction.” I

[00:01:42] Megan: get it. That’s right. We must not know or like you very much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, um, we are really excited today to talk about your new, newish book, which is called Procrastination Proof, and I love this little turtle here with the dynamite on his back because I feel like I need that.

[00:01:58] Jon: Yeah, I think

[00:01:59] Megan: most of us do. You know? Like, I feel like the turtle with the wheels, and I want the dynamite. I

[00:02:02] Michael: don’t think it’s dynamite. Well- I think it’s a, it’s a rocket

[00:02:05] Jon: It’s not gonna blow him up. Oh, a rocket. It’s not a… Yeah. Oh, sorry. Sorry. If you’re, if you’re listening to a podcast, it’s not animal sacrifice on the cover of my book.

[00:02:11] Let, good call-

[00:02:12] Megan: I’ve totally failed already …

[00:02:13] Jon: good call, Michael Hyatt. This is why you’re in publishing. Rocket.

[00:02:15] Michael: No turtles were hurt- Yeah,

[00:02:17] Jon: yeah … in the production of this junk … I don’t… Babies need shoes. Oh my God. I don’t wanna isolate turtle buyers.

[00:02:22] Megan: So what this means is to know what we’re talking about, if you’re not watching this video, you must go to Amazon and look this book up so you can see it.

[00:02:28] Yeah. And then while you’re there, just go ahead and buy it. Do yourself a favor. John, that was my plug for you, my friend.

[00:02:32] Jon: Thank you. I appreciate that.

[00:02:33] Megan: Okay, speaking of books, there was a time in 2024 when you read 100 books- You know, I’m married to someone who is a voracious reader- Oh, yeah … and even for Joel, this would be a lot.

[00:02:47] His

[00:02:48] Jon: library’s impressive.

[00:02:49] Megan: It’s pretty great. Your library is pretty impressive. So again, if you’re not watching us, you need to watch this video so you can see John’s library in the background. But what made you cut your reading goal almost in half?

[00:03:00] Michael: Which is still big, by the way. Still a big goal.

[00:03:02] Jon: Yeah.

[00:03:02] Yeah, it’s still a big goal. I mean, I realized that my motives for doing it were no longer what I wanted them to be. It had shifted into performance, meaning I was doing it so I looked smart. Like, oh- Yeah … here’s book number 42. Here’s book number 47, and I realized also at that speed, I wasn’t digesting them the way I wanted to.

[00:03:24] Like, I was- Hmm … I was going through at such a clip that I wasn’t getting the same wisdom out of them that I would if I slowed down. And so- Hmm … I, you know, it was a, it was a good challenge for me. I’ve got this concept I sometimes talk to people about, about don’t be a success voyeur, meaning watching other people have success.

[00:03:44] And where I see that is I’ll have guys tell me the 10 podcasts they listen to of billionaires interviewing other billionaires, and I’ll go, “Well, how did you change your life?” And they go, “Oh, I haven’t at all.” Like, it’s so easy to watch other success versus actually do it. So I felt like I was in this mode where I was going too fast, I was not picking up real ideas, and I didn’t have the, the bandwidth to actually go, “Oh, I need to highlight that and think about that and journal about that.”

[00:04:10] And-

[00:04:11] Megan: Mm-hmm …

[00:04:11] Jon: I read War of Art very slowly by Steven Pressfield. Yes. And I’ve read it multiple times since, and I- Love it … I got a lot out of that. So I… That was part of why I cut it down.

[00:04:20] Megan: You and I are probably close to the same age. I’m 46. How old are you?

[00:04:23] Jon: I’m 50. You’ll probably notice some extra wisdom in this episode now that I’ve told you-

[00:04:27] Megan: Oh, good.

[00:04:27] I was hoping. That four years, it makes all the difference. That’s what I’m, that’s what we’re counting on here. I don’t know about you, and Dad, you are considerably older than either of us, so- Yeah, thanks

[00:04:36] Michael: for reminding

[00:04:36] Megan: me … yeah, yeah. So you can, you can tell us your thoughts on this, but I feel like the older I get, the more I gravitate toward slow and the less I care, like, that kind of success Like virtue signaling, you know, or whatever, um- Hustle

[00:04:52] you called it. Yeah. It’s like I don’t, I don’t care about that as much because I want to, I wanna take my time. It’s like I’m tired of hurrying. Does that feel like it’s true for you too? Or do you feel like this is like a conscious act of discipline that you have to, to take in order to slow yourself down?

[00:05:09] Jon: I do feel that. I don’t know if it’s age-related or not, but… And my wife is saying that. Like, we spent the summer together. Hmm. We went up to the mountains of North Carolina, and she said two things that I’m still working on. One was, “We have a really amazing life. I wish you could admit that and enjoy it too.”

[00:05:27] And so that was a good- Hmm … like, “Huh, okay.” And she’s always- Wow … dropped like conversational grenades like that casually, but perimenopause has increased the frequency- Oh … I would say. And also, uh- Yes … heads up, husbands, you’re not allowed to chew gum in the car, because you make it too juicy. Um, that’s another lesson I’ve learned.

[00:05:44] But so she said that, and then the second thing she said was, “We grinded for 20 years. I don’t wanna grind for the next 10. What’s the plan?”

[00:05:51] Megan: Yeah.

[00:05:52] Jon: And so- That’s cool … I do think I’m in a season of going, what does it look like to steward, you know, what I’m capable of? Like, I have an engine. Like, Michael has an engine.

[00:06:02] Like, neither one of us would go, “I’m gonna stop this and watch Law & Order all day.” Just, I’m gonna, you know, I’m gonna be on a beach.

[00:06:09] Megan: Maybe Yellowstone, though.

[00:06:10] Jon: Yellowstone- Just saying … ‘s a lot, a lot of episodes. So yeah, I do feel that sense of like… But I don’t know if I feel necessarily it’s always slowing down.

[00:06:17] It feels like it’s depth. Like, I’m admitting now ego-wise- Hmm … depth takes more time than I might like to admit, and for me to be really good at an idea or a thing takes a level of depth, and depth takes time. Yep.

[00:06:30] Megan: That’s well said. And it’s, uh, there’s kind of like joy in that, I find. You know, it’s like when you’ve, when you try to maximize for volume for a lot of your life, when you give yourself permission to go deep, you know, like we’ve cut our products down to just two, we used to have 10 plus, it’s really fun to go deep with something, kind of for the first time, you know?

[00:06:49] Jon: Was that scary, Michael, though, to go from 10 to two?

[00:06:52] Michael: Yes and no. I mean, there was, there’s kind of like the financial part of that. Like, what’s that gonna mean financially? But once you model it, you realize, I mean- Most of our profit, most of, uh, the revenue’s coming from two products anyway. Yeah. So why are we complicating our lives with all this other stuff?

[00:07:06] Yeah. But just to go back to the, the comments you were making, uh, Megan, about slowing down- Mm-hmm … I just think from my perspective, and I’m 71, so yes, I am considerably ol- older than the two of you, but the thing that, that Gail and I have started doing, and I know, Megan, you and Joel do the same thing, but all of us have kinda gotten into the, to the value of getting early morning light.

[00:07:26] You know, we’ve listened to a lot of Andrew Huberman and other circadian biologists and advocates. And so to me, what really gives me a sense of things slowing down in a positive way is getting up with Gail and sitting on the porch for the first 30 to 45 minutes. You know, we try to get up at daybreak, although now that’s a moving target.

[00:07:48] But, um, at daybreak and stay through the sunrise, and just having a cup of coffee and just catching up with each other, woo, that just kinda sets the tone of the day. I love it.

[00:07:57] Jon: Yeah. Totally.

[00:07:59] Michael: Okay. I think this is a counterintuitive idea that you talk about in the book, but how can procrastination- Be a solution, and what problem was it solving for you?

[00:08:10] Jon: Yeah, so, um, the problem with procrastination is it is a solution, it’s just not a great one. Because it says- Yeah … to you, “Oh, you’re afraid of criticism, and you’re afraid of people saying, ‘You wrote a book? What do you know about such and such topic?'” Or… And so it says to you, “Hey, you’ll never have to get criticized.

[00:08:29] I’ll put that off for a year. We won’t even think about the book.” Hmm. “Like, I’ll solve your fear of, of that.” And it doesn’t tell you, “Now you don’t get the joy of releasing a book. You don’t get the joy of helping people.” It just tells you, “I’ll solve this.” Or, you know, I see this one with teenagers where they’re afraid of being rejected, so they don’t ask a friend to do something, which means they’re automatically rejected.

[00:08:51] “So what are you doing tonight?” “Nothing. I, I wanted to do something, but I, I was afraid of asking somebody and getting told no, so I just didn’t ask.” And you see that with adults who want raises that don’t ask for them. But procrastination goes, “Hey, we don’t have to do this. Let me remove this from your, your plate.

[00:09:07] Like, don’t worry about it.” So it feels like a solution right up until it’s not. And so that, you know, for me, I would say you talked about eliminating some products. I would say the last two years I’ve been dragging my feet on stopping some things in my business that I knew I needed to stop because I was afraid to end them.

[00:09:27] And procrastination said, “Hey, we can kick this can down the road for another six months, and we can… Like, let’s not really look at the numbers. Let’s just…” You know. And so now-

[00:09:36] Megan: Mm-hmm …

[00:09:36] Jon: when I finally got to it and realized, oh, I’m primarily B2B. Like, if I’m honest, I’m B2B, meaning the majority of my business is serving corporate clients, 50 to 60 speaking events a year.

[00:09:50] Um, okay, I’m B2B. What does that mean? Oh, it means I need to focus on LinkedIn some. Like, what does that look like? Okay, that’s a new thing. It means I need to, you know, stop doing some other things, and I was really putting those off because I was afraid probably initially of the financial implications, even though the things I was gonna stop doing weren’t making money.

[00:10:11] I have this really simple principle for business where if you don’t enjoy it, you’re bad at it, and it doesn’t make money, you don’t need to do that. Like ’cause if you enjoy it, you’ll get better. What a concept. That’s where I go back and forth with YouTube is, like, if you enjoy it, you’ll get better.

[00:10:27] You’ll work at it. You’ll get better. But if you hate it, and you’re not good at it, and it doesn’t make money, like, that’s the Venn diagram of what are you doing in that business? And I think all too often we procrastinate those kind of decisions because they feel like an ending. They feel like finality, and so we put them off, and procrastination solves that problem for a season.

[00:10:48] Michael: To put our cards on the table, one of the things we do teach, and we probably need better language around this, but, uh, intentional procrastination.

[00:10:56] Jon: Yeah.

[00:10:57] Michael: Like, everything’s im- feels like it’s important, but not everything is important now And so the now component is key. And so maybe intentional deferral

[00:11:05] Megan: That’s really just sequencing, though.

[00:11:07] I think that’s different than avoidance. You know, to me, like-

[00:11:10] Michael: I, I do too … when you’re talking about-

[00:11:11] Jon: The phrase they use, Michael, is a sagacious delay. Like, a sagacious delay is when you are deliberately delaying doing something. So it’s not procrastinating to get more information when you need more information.

[00:11:25] It’s not procrastinating to go- Hmm … this isn’t the time or the week or the month or the season for this project, I’m going to… But, but you’re right, Megan, it’s sequencing, it’s intentionality. I love when I don’t do things intentionally because I’ve put some wisdom and some time and some thought into it.

[00:11:42] I don’t like when I don’t do things out of fear, and I can tell when fear is driving a delay versus intentionality. So I go, oh… Like tomorrow I was thinking, I might skip going to the gym. I go to, I do a workout at 5:30 AM because we’re going to Sanford parents weekend, and I know we’re gonna stay up later than normal hosting our kids in Birmingham.

[00:12:03] And I don’t wanna be tired at the end of the day going, “Well, I gotta go to bed ’cause like…” So I might delay going to the gym on that mon- you know, that day and move it to another day. That, that’s intentional. That’s for a bigger reason versus just procrastinating.

[00:12:17] Michael: I do think that it takes a lot of self-awareness to discern which is what.

[00:12:23] Jon: Oh, yeah. ‘

[00:12:24] Michael: Cause it’s easy in the moment. I mean, we live so much of our lives kind of on autopilot- That it’s easy to miss that, and you just wake up and you go, “Man, I have been procrastinating that for, like, six months.”

[00:12:33] Jon: You’re right. I love that i- the, the phrase self-awareness is so important. I don’t think you can be as successful as you can be without some degree of self-awareness.

[00:12:42] And so even little things like watching the things where you overreact. So, like, why… Like- Mm-hmm … looking for overreactions and go, “Huh, that was an inappropriate, bigger than needed to be reaction to that.” Or in our marriage, I always tell people our marriage goes really well if I don’t add the phrase, “You idiot,” to the end of sentences Jennie has said to me.

[00:13:04] So an example would be-

[00:13:06] Michael: Wife hack.

[00:13:06] Jon: Yeah. She says… Like, she says to me, for instance, “Hey, did you remember an umbrella?” And I hear, “Did you remember an umbrella, you idiot? Because you always forget everything, and you’re disorganized, and you’re a chaotic artist.” And then I overreact and go, “I got an umbrella. I got, like, 50 umbrellas.

[00:13:20] I invented umbrellas.” And then she goes, “I know you’re wearing your new coat and you wouldn’t wanna get it wet, so I, I was just asking, like, did you remember an umbrella?” And so I’m learning the self-awareness of going, where did I add something to that? In my marriage, in a business setting. Yep. Mm. It’s really good.

[00:13:38] Where is, where is there insecurity that’s kinda speaking versus wisdom? And so, but that does take a pace where you can do that. If you’re hustling so hard, you can’t even notice that. And then the other challenge, in my opinion, is the more successful you get, the worse they let you behave. If you’re not careful, the more successful you get, the worse they let you behave.

[00:14:00] Meaning I watch leaders and they go, “Oh yeah, he yells at everybody and people cry sometimes after me. That’s just him. He’s passionate.” You know, like, “That’s just…” And they start to excuse behavior. And so I think as, as you as a leader grow and get better, you… Like, I see that, like, so I, as a public speaker, I always ask event planners and the, and the sound production team, “What can guys like me do to make your job easier?”

[00:14:25] And they’re always floored by the question, because a lot of people that are at certain levels of public speaking don’t even acknowledge that they’re there. And you know, like, “You’re in my way, just get me on stage.” And then they say, “Well, it’s so great that you come to soundcheck. We really appreciate that.”

[00:14:40] And I think, “Are there people actively skipping soundcheck?” And they’re like, “You’d be shocked.” And they go-

[00:14:47] Michael: I didn’t even know that was an option …

[00:14:48] Jon: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, and… Or like, “It’s so great you send your slides way before we need them. That means the world to us.” Okay. Like, it’s so- I don’t do that … like, and so they’re…

[00:14:57] So, but like, I go, “That’s a low bar.” They’re like, “You’re so nice to the staff.” And I’m like, “Yeah, Jenny would kill me if she knew I was out somewhere, like, big-timing people. Like, I don’t ha-…” Like… And so I just think you have to kind of keep conscious of like, “Well, as I get more successful, how do I not lose the things that, that really help me serve people, just because I’m getting bigger opportunities and people might make allowances for a successful person?”

[00:15:26] Michael: Again, self-awareness. For you to even ask those questions, I think shows a lot of self-awareness, and also empathy for other people. Yes. Which I think is important.

[00:15:35] Jon: So I, I, I told you guys before we started f- recording, I do this two-day event called Stage and Page where one day is about speaking and one day is about writing, and one of the things I sp- I teach public speakers is you’re not the bride at this wedding.

[00:15:49] You’re not the bride at this wedding. Like, I told somebody that the other day. It was a 7,000-person ev- it was Global Leadership Summit, and they were nervous about speaking. I said, “Let’s take this down a notch. You’re not the bride at this wedding.” In most events, the CEO announcing the bonus, that’s the bride.

[00:16:03] The person sitting there that’s stressed about AI changing their job, that’s the bride. I’m carrying in a really good plate of chicken, and it’s gonna be the best plate of chicken you’ve ever had. But when I have that attitude, it changes from an act of performance into an act of service. So now I’m showing up to serve everyone there, and I tell clients on the upfront in our pre-call, “My goal is your phone blows up, not mine.

[00:16:27] I get to be there an hour. You’re there all year.” Mm. And putting on an event is one of the only jobs where you work six months on it and sit next to the CEO and watch it go well or not go well. Like, the pressure that an event planner’s under. So when I approach any part of my life from a service perspective, it reduces the pressure on me, it tamps down that ego, and it allows the, you know, the, the client has an amazing experience ’cause they’re like, “Oh, you really were invested in the success of this thing.”

[00:16:59] And I’m like, “Of course, like, that’s my role. Like, I’m, I’m in a service business.”

[00:17:04] Megan: Wow. I love that. You know, I’m, I’m reminded of this conversation that I had with our friend Ian Cron years ago, and we were talking about something, and he asked me a question of, uh, that was… I’m gonna paraphrase it ’cause I don’t remember the exact words he used, but it was something like, “What are you not willing to feel right now?”

[00:17:23] And when I think about procrastination, I think about, you talk about the idea of like avoidance and, and all that kind of stuff. And I think about The reality that there’s something that we don’t want to feel. You know, there’s s- some… Maybe it’s fear, maybe it’s the consequence of whatever we’re gonna say that’s sort of our worst-case scenario.

[00:17:43] But this… I had a, an interesting encounter with a, a client that I was doing a one-on-one session with, um, just in the last week, and she’s a very successful business owner, and she has a complicated, some complicated, uh, relationships inside her business that she is, is tired of kind of paying the price for, and she’s ready to make some changes around.

[00:18:03] And we talked a lot about, you know, why she hadn’t made the changes. Like, it was really clear what she wanted to do, but she was, she was really struggling. She had been struggling up to this point with taking action on that. And ultimately, you know, it came down to there were feelings that she didn’t wanna feel.

[00:18:19] She wouldn’t wanna feel responsible for someone else’s emotions related to the decision that she needed to make or the consequence of that in their life, feeling like that could be really negative, and then it would be her fault, which we can all relate to. I mean, I’ve, gosh, I’ve had that experience 1,000 times.

[00:18:35] And I, I said to her, “You know, I think that ultimately your success will be determined by your capacity to feel feelings you don’t like, uh, for the sake of something you want more than that, you know?” And so we were talking about, you know, how she might could work with a therapist, and that might be helpful to kind of work through this.

[00:18:53] And I said, “But remember, you’re not trying to get comfortable with the feelings, ’cause you’re not gonna be… I mean, they’re, they’re, like, not pleasant. You’re actually just gonna, to become… Your, your goal is to just to become convicted enough where you will take action and tolerate those feelings, increase your tolerance level.”

[00:19:12] And I mean, I’m saying this to her, but I’m saying it to myself too because I think that’s always the challenge. That’s, for me, when I think about procrastination, it’s usually the discomfort that I’m avoiding. Do you feel like that’s true? Or like, what have you uncovered in all of your challenges and, you know, you’ve had 30,000 people participate in these online challenges you’ve done and a bunch of study in your own life, like, what do you see with that?

[00:19:32] Jon: Yeah, I mean, I think part of what happens is we do lose sight of the thing we want, and we over- Yeah … focus on the thing that’s going, that, that, the fear or the feeling we want to avoid. And I, I ran the numbers on this the other day. Um, I wrote a post about how many one-star reviews I’ve received. So I went to Goodreads and Amazon and looked at ev- and cate- Oof

[00:19:53] like totaled every one-star review I’ve ever received, and it was 1,072. Wow. And the problem is procrastination will tell you math like, “If you write your book or if you do your thing, people are gonna write one-star reviews. There’s gonna be criticism, and I don’t wanna feel inadequate. Like, I don’t wanna feel the feeling of like it wasn’t the best it could be, or people didn’t like it, or they said these mean things about me.”

[00:20:18] But the problem is I now have enough evidence that a million people have bought my… Like, a, I sold a million books So a million books turned into 1,072 reviews. So procrastination will never say, “Hey, now 998,000, you know, 98 people aren’t gonna write a one-star review.” It tells you the other side, and then the feeling gets all the marketing.

[00:20:43] The negative thing- Yeah … you’re trying to avoid. So what I’ve learned over the years is, like, to over focus on that thing. What’s the win here? What’s the… And hold on to that. Like, I oversteer at the, at the goal and I understeer at the feeling I’m trying to avoid. Mm. And you’re right, I’m not trying to… A lot of my job is telling people, “Oh, that hard thing that feels hard is hard.”

[00:21:07] Like, ’cause- Yeah. … they feel like a failure for going, “I don’t know why I’m struggling so much with my dad who has early onset dementia, and it’s really wrecking my goals. I don’t know why I feel this way.” I’m like, “You should feel that. Like, that’s a really challenging thing. Like, this is…” And so sometimes it is that first step.

[00:21:23] I remember, um, I had a counselor once tell me, talking about therapy, “It’s not the feeling that causes the trouble, it’s the feeling about the feeling.” Yes. So an example in my- 100% … in my life, I didn’t grow up with a model where anger was acceptable. Like, in my church setting, what… Like, so when I was a young man, if I felt angry, I would feel guilty, and then that made me- Mm-hmm

[00:21:44] feel angrier, and then it just became this circle. And so I had to learn, like, oh, no, that’s an appropriate emotion. Here’s what it looks like. But I think the problem is, the real problem is in that moment, the world offers plenty of distractions that allow you to not feel that feeling. If you ask me, the online gambling epidemic is a lot of, particularly young men, young women might do it, too- Mm

[00:22:09] avoiding feelings, saying, “I want to have the f- the thrill of a victory,” or, “I wanna have some skin in the game,” and like, “I don’t know where to put this passion.” And then DraftKings goes, “Well, here’s a really… You can get the dopamine of that right this second. Like, you can get it right here.” And then you add the nihilism of you’ll never be able to afford a house.

[00:22:28] You’ll never ha- Like, and they’ve got all this negativity, and it’s like, this is the only way to live out that experience or that passion. And that’s the challenge to me about modern procrastination, is the world’s really good at taking what you just described and going, “Well, here’s an alternative feeling to feel, and we’ve, you know, we’ll give you this exit.”

[00:22:54] I would love to hear from you, Michael. Like, there was a time in my life where I was like, “Once I hit 50, I won’t have these types of feelings.” Then I got to 50 and I was like, “Oh, no.” So at 71, can you tell all of us like, “Hey, I’ve got some terrible news. I fight fear,” or, “Hey, here’s what I do to deal with it.”

[00:23:13] Like, I’m sure you’ve had that experience.

[00:23:16] Michael: Yeah. In fact, that’s… I would say that the experience intensifies over the years because you are more self-aware.

[00:23:21] Jon: Mm.

[00:23:22] Michael: And so I don’t know that I didn’t have those emotion- or I had those emotions less earlier in my career, but still, like, I’m flying up to New England, uh, this weekend to do a speaking engagement, and there’s always that, you know, butterflies in my stomach.

[00:23:40] Will they like what I have to share? Will they find it helpful? But, you know, the, the positive side of I’ve got a track record of, not 71 years because I didn’t start speaking till I was in my mid-20s, but I’ve got a track record of those fears never come true. Yeah. But they’re always there. And so what I’ve learned now is that…

[00:24:02] And I embrace that fear because I think the fear gives me the motivation to prepare better To execute at a higher level, and even before I walk on stage, you know, I, I want that adrenaline, I want that dopamine, I want that support that biology gives me to be fully present and, as you said earlier, to, to really serve people.

[00:24:23] So I d- I do think there’s a way to reframe those emotions-

[00:24:25] Jon: Yeah …

[00:24:26] Michael: for sure, in a way that’s healthy.

[00:24:27] Jon: I, I have this theory, um, that I’m working on, probably will put into a book down the road, that everyone I know who’s really successful is really intense. They’ve just learned what to do with it. Like, I haven’t met a really chill…

[00:24:41] And I would say, like, I am now at a point where I can say I’m a very naturally anxious person. I’ve just learned how to couple that with optimism, and so I do a lot of things. And so for years I couldn’t have, maybe it was out of embarrassment, be like, “Oh, I’m an anxious person.” And so I think a lot of leaders, successful people I talk to, you go, “Oh, that is intense.”

[00:25:04] And if you talk to their spouse, they’re like, “Oh, yeah, let me tell you this story.” Or, like, there’s something they’ll say like, “Oh yeah, we went on vacation, you know, like, he had to join an Ironman that just happened to be in the town we were in and go…” And so I just think that there’s a lot of us that have, whether you wanna call it anxiety or intensity or drive or whatever, it’s this powerful engine, and then how you apply it, like using it for extra prep on a speech.

[00:25:31] Like, you know, one of the other soundtracks I tell myself is, “I’m really good at this,” because I do have that evidence. I also say, like, “I was invited here on purpose. I didn’t break in.” Like, they- Yeah … of 10,000 speakers, they saw my clips, and like, I know the work I’ve put in. And so it’s, it is this kind of rolling ball of proof and fear and prep, and then it turns into something, hopefully long-term, that helps a ton of people.

[00:25:58] But I, I just… I now love when I talk to a leader and I go, “Well, tell me about something you’re doing that’s a little unusual.” And then they’ll tell me their thing they do to kinda deal with their engine and keep it in a positive way versus a negative way. I love that kinda question.

[00:26:15] Michael: I do too. One negative emotion is fear of rejection.

[00:26:19] Jon: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:19] Michael: And you say that for a long time that kept you from inviting people to spend time with you.

[00:26:24] Jon: Yeah.

[00:26:25] Michael: And left you lonely. And you and I were having a conversation with Megan before we got on today, we were talking about being more intentional in relationships, but what finally got you to take the risk?

[00:26:35] Jon: Well, I mean, I think COVID really challenged me on that because- Mm … I was no longer on the road with speaking engagements. And then my wife said something, she said, uh, “You’re an extrovert with strangers and an introvert with people you know.” And that was a really good thing for me to unpack. And what she was saying is, “I watch you go do book signing lines.

[00:26:56] I watch you go do these events, and you’re very extroverted. And then when it’s people that actually know you and love you and wanna spend time with you, you get pretty introverted.” So I kinda had to dig into that a little bit. And then the other thing that kind of, you know, really changed me was I was working out by myself in my garage.

[00:27:14] I was doing, like, a CrossFit-type workout that somebody came up with, uh, for me that owned a CrossFit gym. And a neighbor who I barely talked to invited me to go to F3, this men’s morning workout, and I d- I really went just so he’d stop asking. I was like, “I’ll go do this one time.” And then I started to work out with these guys outside.

[00:27:33] You get a nickname. It’s ridiculous, and I loved it. And it was like I didn’t know I needed community until I bumped into community. It’s like not knowing you were thirsty until you had a drink. We’re like, “Oh.” And so that really opened up my eyes to my need of community, and then I just started to really look at it as my business that way.

[00:27:53] Like, where do I… And then Jenny, I know I keep– Jenny’s my business partner. I keep bringing her up, but she said, “There’s a million dollars in your phone.” Like, “There’s a million dollars in your phone. I think you need to figure out where it is.” And so that made me go, “Oh, from a business perspective, how do I build relationship long term, you know, that I’m really serving people and we’ve got– we’re both winning, and what does that, what does that look like, and make time for it?”

[00:28:17] So yeah, it started out though really, like, realizing I was lonely, finding a so- a great solution to that. And then the other thing is, like, when you’re a little brave, other people respond.

[00:28:29] Michael: Yes.

[00:28:29] Jon: When I see somebody admit a weakness, I go, “They’re so strong. They’re so brave. Oh my gosh.” When I think about admitting one of my own, I think, “People are gonna judge you.

[00:28:37] They’ll never trust your advice again. They’re gonna think you’re weak.” And so realizing that Like when I would say to somebody, “Oh, I’m lonely,” or, “I want a relationship,” they didn’t reject me. They were like, “Oh, thank goodness you were brave,” ’cause I didn’t know how to ask either. Like, if you, if you’re around people who are honest, that’s usually the reaction.

[00:28:56] It’s not, it’s not rejection.

[00:28:58] Michael: I’ve noticed sometimes too that, you know, you see somebody that you’d like to be friends with, but they seem kind of aloof, like they don’t have any needs, and how would they make time for me? And I’ve had this experience more than once, many times, where you find out, no, they’re just kind of shy and insecure like I am.

[00:29:17] Jon: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:29:18] Michael: You know? And they’re not reaching out because they’re just… For the same reasons I’m not reaching out. Yeah. And then once you, once somebody goes first, the whole thing opens up.

[00:29:26] Jon: You know, leadership is, uh, going first and giving everyone else the gift of going second. Yeah. ‘Cause it’s hard to go first.

[00:29:32] And so, like… And I’ve, I’ve seen that in, in my life. Like, you invite… You said, “Hey, I’ll give you a ride to this event we’re both going to.” And I said before we started recording, like, that was one of the best parts of it, ’cause we got to unpack it, we got to talk on the way there. Like, we… And so that’s the kinda thing that I th- And I think that people are starving for it.

[00:29:52] They just don’t know how to do it.

[00:29:53] Michael: I agree.

[00:29:54] Megan: All right, John, you talk about this idea of a remarkable life- Mm-hmm … in Procrastination Proof, and I’d love to e- for you to unpack that for us, and then also talk about what does that look like for your life outside of work, you know, as a husband, as a dad, as a friend?

[00:30:11] Like, what does it look like to have a remarkable life?

[00:30:13] Jon: Yeah, so my definition of procrastination is really simple. Um, it’s when your actions don’t match your intentions.

[00:30:21] Megan: Mm.

[00:30:21] Jon: So when who you say you wanna be isn’t who you are, and it, there’s a gap. There’s a wide gap. And so the reverse of that is, and a remarkable life in my opinion, is when your intentions overlap with your actions, when who you say you wanna be is who you’re being.

[00:30:37] And so for me, um, I, I … In the book I say, like, “Why would you ever choose anything that isn’t remarkable?” Like, if somebody offered you… If we made it clear and said, “Hey, you can have a very remarkable marriage where it feels like it gets better every year. You just develop more private jokes, and you love to spend time with each other.”

[00:30:55] Like, you can have a remarkable marriage, or you can have the kind of marriage where, like, your partner’s more than anything, you have separate lives, and eventually when the kids go to college, you get a divorce. Which one would you choose? No one would go, “Eh, I like that second one, so I get to be lonely while also sleeping next to somebody, which is the worst type of loneliness.

[00:31:12] I’ll take that one.” Like, same with health. Nobody would say, “I want planes to be uncomfortable physically. I wanna not be able to go to Italy with my granddaughter because Italy is made of stairs, and I don’t trust my knees,” whatever. Or you can be in, you know, the best shape you’re possible of. Like, oh, wow, where you feel a lot of energy and…

[00:31:33] Like, no one would choose the, you know, negative version. And, and so I just think that most of us don’t know that we get to choose that. Mm. I think a lot of times we bring old beliefs into, you know, different parts of our lives. Like, the way I look at it, belief comes by one of three ways: they’re born, they’re borrowed, or they’re built And they’re born, so you come with some from your family.

[00:31:57] I talked to a guy the other day in his 50s who wants to lose weight, but he feels like he’s disobeying his parents and his family because in his family, food is culture, food is love. So every time he thinks about getting in shape, he says, “How will I go home to Thanksgiving? And my mom will say, ‘You’re not eating enough,’ and here I made your favorite dish.”

[00:32:14] And like, I will be outside of our family norm if I do that. They’re borrowed. Culture is constantly giving you, you know, beliefs. And then the last one is they’re built, and I just don’t think enough of us know you get to build your beliefs. You get to build the life you want. Like, you, like, regardless of where you came from or where you started from, you get to do that.

[00:32:36] And so how that looks outside of my life is that I have goals around every part of my life. I think a lot of people are dialed in on maybe their finances and maybe their business, and they’re structured and they’re deliberate and they have meetings and schedules, and then they just kind of hope their family happens like jazz.

[00:32:56] Like, it just revolves naturally and is awesome naturally. And so I always tell people, like, awesome is never accidental. Awesome is never accident. I’ve never met somebody who accidentally got in shape, who said, “Yeah, one day I was binge-watching Netflix. Next thing you knew, I was, I was doing burpees in the living room.

[00:33:11] I don’t even remember getting off the couch.” I’ve never met somebody who had an awesome marriage accidentally. The default of marriage is different directions, and what I can say now in my 50s is my friends who have gotten divorced 10 years before Jenny and I would say, “Well, their marriage doesn’t work for us, but it must work for them.”

[00:33:30] Like, they never spend time together. They don’t… They criticize each other publicly a lot. They talk bad about each other when they’re not there. Like, doesn’t work for us, but it must work for them. And you find out, no, it didn’t work for them. It didn’t work for them, and eventually it really… So now I have marriage goals.

[00:33:46] And so anything that I think has value, same with, like, my faith. So I’m a Christian, and so I realized recently, like, one of my new soundtracks I’m wrestling with is that identity follows activity Identity follows activity. So theoretically, my identity should be in my relationship with Jesus, but statistically, I spend about four hours a week engaged in my faith.

[00:34:10] So out of 168 hours, that’s about 2.3% of my time every week. So it would be wild if I said to you, “I don’t know why I don’t think of my identity first as my identity in Christ. Like, it’s so weird that I don’t feel connected.” Like, you should mathematically go, “I, I know why. Your first identity- It’s a clue.

[00:34:28] Like, there’s a clue. And so, so that’s what I feel like I apply… Like, faith, marriage, health, all the stuff, I want all of it to be great. And our culture tells you if you’re gonna have a really successful business, you’ll have a average marriage. They don’t say that out loud, they just go like, “Hey, that’s one of the consequences.”

[00:34:47] Like, or if you’re gonna be in shape, you have to be obsessed and you can’t have a good business. Or like, and we all know friends who one category of their life, like they run 100 miles in the woods, but their finances are a disaster. And you’re like, “Hey, you know, retirement is coming.” They’re like, “Yeah, I’m doing ultra-marathons.”

[00:35:05] And you’re like, you’re so disciplined here, you’re not over here. I just want every part to be remarkable, and I think it’s possible.

[00:35:10] Megan: So John, what do you do, you gave us some examples, but what do you do personally to make your actions match your intentions in those areas that are not work? Yeah. ‘Cause I think in work, it’s like we have all the systems and the structures, it’s a little more intuitive.

[00:35:26] Whether you’re doing them or not is maybe another question. But, but you’re right. Like, outside of work It, it does feel more like jazz, or at least it can. Yeah. There’s not… the sheet music does not necessarily come so readily. So what do you do?

[00:35:39] Jon: Yeah. So I’ll give you a couple examples. One of my soundtracks is choose what’s rare.

[00:35:43] Mm. Choose what’s rare, meaning if, if when my daughters were in high school and they would text me and go, “Hey, can we grab coffee?” I’m dropping everything. That’s rare. It’s rare when a teenager reaches out to you. I’m dropping, you know, to the best of my abilities. Like, if I’m out of town- Mm … it’s different obviously.

[00:36:00] But to the best of my abilities, I’m choosing what’s rare. I try to, with my wife, be interruptible. So if I’m at work and I’m working at something, and I’m at home, you know, now a podcast she’s not gonna pop in, but, like, if she needs something, to be… I try to be interruptible. And not grumpy and interruptible, like, “What do you need?”

[00:36:20] But like, I’m gonna be interruptible, and that’s a practice I can do. That’s a practice I can make space for. Another s- tangible goal I’m doing, and I’ve only done it for the last two months, so I don’t wanna brag yet, but there’s a little… there’s a notebook sold by Leuchtturm, this German notebook brand, and it’s five lines a day over a five-year period.

[00:36:40] And so the thing I’m working on right now is I thought I would love to give my kids that at their rehearsal dinner. Mm. “Here’s how I prayed over you for five years.” Or if it takes a second notebook, 10 years, whatever. So now it’s not me going, I have the intention of praying for my daughters. Every dad or mom is like, “I want the best for my kids.”

[00:36:59] But now I got an action, and if I do that every, you know, like every day and I’m deliberate about, like, man, now I get to watch that stack up and now it’s not just a wish. There’s actually action around it. So I try to get really creative that way. And then ultimately how I kinda think through all of this is I just realized that I wanted alignment in what, in my life.

[00:37:22] And the way I explored that initially was I got night me on the same page as morning me. So morning me would wake up some days and go, “I wanna get after it. I wanna have high energy and I wanna do…” And I’d be overwhelmed, and I’d be tired, and I’d feel out of sorts, and I’d go to night me like, “Hey, why am I so messed up?”

[00:37:40] And go, “Oh, I stayed up till midnight doom scrolling, and then I ate a lasagna. So good luck tomorrow.” And I had this disconnect. And then the other thing I realized, and this is self-awareness, Michael talked about this Morning me is a great doer, night me is a great decider. Morning me feels so overwhelmed.

[00:37:58] If I wake up on a Monday morning at 8:00 AM or 7:00 AM and I don’t have a plan, and I don’t know what coming… Like, emails are already coming in, texts are already coming in, I feel overwhelmed. But if night me will decide a few things before, he just hooked up morning me. Morning me will run through a wall if you pick out the wall first.

[00:38:15] And so what happened was I had that, I got morning me and night me on the same page. That created my favorite definition of discipline, which is, um, make tomorrow easy today. What can I do today to make tomorrow easy? So then I just started to go, okay, night’s working with morning, how can Monday me do something that makes Friday me’s life great?

[00:38:34] So I know I visited the future. Friday afternoon, I’d love an easy afternoon. So Monday me is gonna over hustle to give that gift to Friday. And then I started to go, what can January me do to make July me better? And then the biggest version of it, ’cause I think the problem with leadership is we ask questions like this, what would you tell your 20-year-old self?

[00:38:55] If you go back, what would you tell him? And the reality is I was that 20-year-old, he wouldn’t have listened anyway. And the second problem is that person doesn’t exist. If you wanna live your life in regret, try to change somebody who no longer exists. There’s nothing I can do to change the 20-year-old me, but the six-year-old me exists, the seven-year-old me exists, the 80-year-old me exists.

[00:39:14] So then I just started to think far out. If the 70-year-old me wrote me a thank you note, what would they say? What would they say? Hey, you know what they’d say? Mm-hmm. Thanks for investing in friendships. Like, thanks for, like, thank you for going deep in friendships. Like, we are reaping the harvest of all those things.

[00:39:30] Thanks for staying in shape. Like, it’s, it’s harder to stay in shape now, but the foundation you put in place. Thanks for financially investing in things, even when it wasn’t fun at 50. Like, thanks for doing, you know, making smarter decisions. So then I just was like, how do I do that? That’s how I structure kind of what I do, and that creates an overlap between my intentions and my actions.

[00:39:51] Michael: Powerful. There was so much wisdom in that last five minutes. Whew.

[00:40:04] I get asked this a lot too, ’cause we preach the double win, winning at work, flourishing at life. And we’re all about all those things that are outside of work. But I get asked this question a lot, and I’d love to get your answer to it. Does that mean that you have to throttle your ambition? In other words, is there a world in which Elon Musk could exist and accomplish all the things he’s accomplished, but have an amazing life outside of that?

[00:40:30] Yeah. And people have asked me, you know, they said, “Hey, by your own admission, you hustled, like, for the first 25 years of your life, over-hustled, and is that what made it possible for you now to have more choices?” I’d, I’d love your take on it.

[00:40:45] Jon: Yeah, it’s a great, it’s a great question. Yeah, I don’t know. I think part of it is the decade you’re in, too.

[00:40:51] Like, I tell people in their 20s, I’ll kinda say this jokingly, but I mean it. I’ll say, “In your 20s, don’t use the phrase work-life balance.” Like, don’t use that phrase. Like, ’cause I had a 25-year-old man tell me the other day, “I’m worried about work-life balance.” I was like, “Absolutely not.” I said, “In your 20s, you have the least amount of money, least amount of experience, most amount of time, most amount of energy.

[00:41:10] Combine those things.” So I think there is kind of an age thing to it as well, where, like, what I did in my 20s is different than what I do in my 50s. But I don’t know. I mean, I think, I think everybody is on a journey that’s one of one. So, like, I don’t know what scorecard Elon Musk is playing against. I know the scorecard I’m playing against.

[00:41:30] Mm-hmm. Like, my scorecard has two kids on it, and it has a wife on it, and so, like, those are things that I’m trying to be deliberate about. And also, I guess my version of that would be somebody could say, “John, if you spoke at 120 events a year instead of 60, you’d make double the money.” And maybe that would be true for a season, but I don’t know that the quality would stay the same way.

[00:41:52] Like, I’ve gone beyond my ability before, and it… eventually there’s d- diminishing returns. And I think we run into math as well. I, I try to let math tell me the truth in certain situations, and the reality, um, is that for me to be in connection with people, if I was gone 100, 200… uh, 180 or 200 days a year, I wouldn’t have community in Franklin.

[00:42:16] Like, I just wouldn’t. If I was traveling that much when my kids were young, I wouldn’t know my kids the same way. And so I think the question you’re asking that people don’t like to talk about is there are limits, and you have to wrestle with that.

[00:42:30] Michael: Yes.

[00:42:31] Jon: There’s limits in life. And Megan, you started with, like, slowing down and depth.

[00:42:36] Like, there’s just limits. And so I know I can’t pour into 100 different friendships and have them all be deep. I have a limited amount of time, limited amount of emotions, limited amount of whatever you wanna say, so I have to make the often difficult choices of going like, “No, this is the one that I pour into.

[00:42:54] This is the one I p- you know, the opportunity,” you know, whatever it is. I think that’s a limit question, and people hate limits- Mm-hmm … ’cause it makes us feel like we shouldn’t have limits.

[00:43:05] Megan: I totally agree.

[00:43:06] Michael: That’s a really good answer. And, uh, I like the age thing. I think that’s exactly right. I think where I’ve come down on this, you know, I used to tell people, like, “Look, no, you don’t need to throw it back, your ambition.”

[00:43:16] But I, I kinda think you just have to know what you’re willing to pay For whatever your goal is. Yeah. And I’m not willing to sacrifice my family on the altar of my ambition.

[00:43:28] Jon: The other thing too, Michael, is there’s a level of succe- I always say there’s a level of success where it’s just extra zippers.

[00:43:36] And what I mean by that is if you go buy a, the best ski coat they have at REI, you’re mostly getting extra zippers. Now you can unzip your pit. You can unzip your armpit. And now there’s a zipper on your wrist for putting stuff in, like… And now there’s a zipper on your chest. And like it’s nicer features, but it’s not that dramatically different.

[00:43:56] So there’s some degree of success that you go, “Oh yeah, that’s just extra zippers.” And you’ve had enough success, and I’ve had enough success that I know an extra zero or a, a multiple of it won’t change the things I wrestle with. It won’t change the heart. It won’t fix me. It won’t be like, oh, now… I, I sat next to Henry Cloud, the author of Boundaries, on a plane and I said, “Hey, I’ve sold a million books.

[00:44:21] You’ve sold 20 million. That’s when you feel secure in yourself, right? Is that the number? Is that when you… ” And he just started laughing ’cause it’s such an absurd thought of, like, “No, I feel insecure at a million books, but maybe two million, then I’d really love myself.” And it’s like, no, I gotta do the hard work regardless of the success level.

[00:44:41] So I think I don’t ever wanna tell somebody to lower their ambition, but I do like your idea of like, well, what’s the cost? Mm-hmm. Like, but that’s intentionality too, where you’re like, “This is worth the, this is worth the cost.” I think about that with celebrities all the time. Most celebrities didn’t recognize they were trading the whole world for their fame, meaning- Jelly Roll can’t go to any beach.

[00:45:04] I can go to every beach in America. Jelly Roll can’t go to restaurants. I can go to every… I can walk into any restaurant, like it’s not an issue. He can’t fly in the, like go to the normal airport. I get to go to BNA. That’s a trade. Mm-hmm. Like, he, he traded… Like, I remember somebody said it this way. They said, “Justin Bieber lives in a hamster tube.”

[00:45:22] Like, you know how they have those tubes where ham- He’s like, he gets shot out of his hotel, into a car, driven to the studio, four seconds of air, and then like… I was like, “It’s a hamster tube.” They’re like, “Oh yeah, that’s a tough consequence of the thing you wanted.” So I do think you’re right. It’s count the cost.

[00:45:39] Michael: That’s good.

[00:45:40] Jon: Do people get disappointed when you say, like when, when somebody wants you to say, “No, you can go as hard as you want all the time in every area with no consequences,” do they get disappointed by that? Like, like what do they want you to say?

[00:45:55] Megan: What they do say, I’ll tell you, is people will say, when you say work-life integration, this is…

[00:46:00] or work-life balance, they say, “I don’t- I’m not really into work-life balance, I’m into work-life integration.” And I just wanna call the biggest BS. I wanna get like blinding neon signs and say, “That is a euphemism for I don’t wanna accept my limits, and I want permission to work-” Yeah … anytime I want without having to be called on it.

[00:46:19] Basically, what that means- Yeah … is, you know, my work and my life are just like one thing. And it’s like, well, then you are, by definition, out of balance. Not, not that there’s some kind of exact ratio- Mm-hmm … that we’re talking about with balance, but what it means is you can’t put boundaries on your work and you’re not willing to.

[00:46:33] That’s what work-life integration euphemistically really means, and it, it frustrates me because I think it’s, it’s like, well, ask your kids how they feel about your work-life integration. Ask your wife how she feels about- Yeah … your work-life integration when you get up from date night to go take a call about a deal.

[00:46:50] You know? Let, let’s see.

[00:46:51] Jon: Michael, can you remember that? Like when Gayle called, like you did take a call somewhere. Or maybe even Megan, we were like, “Hey,” we were on a family vacation, but my dad- Yeah … was like landing helicopters from his laptop somehow.

[00:47:04] Megan: Right. It, it feels terrible. I mean, what it feels like is to everybody else is, well, clearly what we’re optimizing for is the ability to do work whenever.

[00:47:13] That’s what we’re- Yeah … that’s what we’re actually saying. We’re giving ourselves permission for that. And what we certainly believe with The Double Win is you absolutely can win at work, meaning you can do meaningful work that you are well paid for, that’s, you know, expression of your gifts and your calling in the world and all those things, and you can also flourish in life.

[00:47:33] Like, absolutely. Can you give full expression to every possible piece of your potential in terms of achievement and flourish in life? Probably absolutely not, because I think that that Fundamentally, that becomes about you. That’s not about stewardship, it’s not about service, and it’s, it’s not about humility.

[00:47:54] Um, it’s really about you and your own ego at that point, and I think the, the people that we see that are doing that, you know, they, they don’t, they’re not flourishing in life. I mean, there, there is, as a human, we do have finite limitations on our time, our energy, our attention, our resources, and we can’t give 150% to everything.

[00:48:16] We have to make choices. And so I think you can win at work and flourish in life, but you can’t, you know, reach your absolute full potential at work to the exclusion of everything else, and then it’s just, like, magic, magical thinking that it’ll- Yeah … all work out, you know?

[00:48:30] Michael: Well, and part of the challenge is everybody wants you to give 100% to their thing.

[00:48:35] Yeah. So, like, if you’re part of a soccer team, you know, you, they want you there at practice every time and really optimizing for that. Same thing with work. You know, if you’re gonna really kill it at work, you’re gonna have to spend 60, 70, 8- 8, maybe 80 hours a week there.

[00:48:50] Megan: Yeah.

[00:48:50] Michael: And everything. You know, if you wanna have a, like, an amazing marriage, you know, you’ve gotta spend, like, full-time studying and reading and doing all that.

[00:48:57] Yeah. And this is one of the things I’ve learned getting older. I think the golden mean, you know, moderation in all things, and not being extreme in anything, is kind of the path forward.

[00:49:08] Jon: For me, a tangible example that I, I had to do, in 2018 I sold out two nights at Zanies, the comedy club in Nashville, and there was this part of me that was like, “Maybe I could take a swing at this.

[00:49:20] Like, maybe I could…” But I also counted the costs, and to be a successful comedian, you have to live in, at least initially, New York or LA, ’cause you need to get up six different nights a week, multiple times. So we don’t have enough comedy clubs in Nashville to really do that at the speed I wanted to do it.

[00:49:37] And then I’d have to tour a lot, and I’d have to… And I had young kids, and it was like, “Oh, this is a fun thing,” but it would be ego for me to think I could casually do it. I couldn’t casually do it and be excellent at it, and it wasn’t worth the sacrifice. And so it was one of those things where it was like I loved getting to do it and I enjoyed it, but it’d be kind of like if I tried to write fiction tomorrow just because.

[00:49:59] It wouldn’t be good, and it shouldn’t be good. I’ve never written fiction. Like, that would be… That’s a natural limit. I would… And so yeah, I, I hope that as you get older you do make peace with your limits and learn to even enjoy them.

[00:50:13] Michael: Amen.

[00:50:14] Megan: I think that’s really good.

[00:50:15] Michael: Well, we’ve gotten to about half of our questions.

[00:50:18] Jon: Yeah. This is why we like each

[00:50:19] Michael: other. And we’re, we’re out of time. But we so, so appreciate you joining us for this, and it just reminds me of how much I respect you and think the world of you, and just- You know, just want to say keep doing what you’re doing because you’re making a real contribution to the world and to the people who you touch.

[00:50:38] Jon: Well, I appreciate that, and- So thanks for being with us … and you’re one of those examples I look up to. I always say people ahead of you are time machines. They’ve been to the future you’re trying to get to. So it’s, it’s not lost on me that I’m getting to talk to Michael and Megan. And as somebody who has daughters who have, you know, dipped their toe into kind of this world, and we wrote a couple books together, that’s a really fun model to look forward to and know is possible.

[00:51:04] And then we talked… We’ve probably known each other 18 to 20 years. I still remember when I worked for Dave Ramsey, you came in and, and talked to us about platform. Like, it was me and his daughter Rachel, and maybe Chris Hogan and some other people, and that was probably 15 years ago. And Platform had just came out, and you came in and kinda gave us some advice on building our platforms.

[00:51:24] So it’s been fun to do a lot of laps with the Hyatt family.

[00:51:27] Megan: That’s awesome.

[00:51:28] Michael: Well, thanks for being part of it, for sure.

[00:51:41] Well, that was a fun conversation.

[00:51:43] Megan: That was so fun. I feel like, I know we say this a lot, but I feel like we could have gone on for another hour or two. Totally. We literally only got through half of our questions because we were making up, you know, questions outside of our notes all along. And man, there were so many things he said, I wanna go back and, like, listen so I can write down all of his little wisdom bombs throughout the, the conversation.

[00:52:03] Michael: Well, I mean, seriously, the value bombs per minute of conversation- Yeah … was intense. One of John’s giftings, and I know that he works hard at this, is to say things in a really memorable way- Mm-hmm … in a really sticky way.

[00:52:16] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:17] Michael: Not everybody can do that. Yeah. But he’s one of the very, very best. So what were some of your key takeaways?

[00:52:25] Megan: Well, I loved how he talked about living a remarkable life as the, a thing, a, a life being where your actions and your intentions match each other You know, we talk about that sometimes, like integrity, make your actions match your words, you know? So it’s sort of like a, a similar concept of that, but it, it makes total sense when you think about procrastination being the opposite of that, where your actions don’t match your intentions, and that creates so much cognitive dissonance for people, and shame, and paralysis, and, you know, all kinds of things.

[00:53:00] And I think he talked a lot… You know, he, he referenced the idea of soundtracks, which of course is one of his most successful books, throughout the, the interview, and just, like, these beliefs that he has that help align his actions to his intentions, um, you know, that he’s the kind of person that, that does align his actions with his intentions.

[00:53:20] And I, I think that was really a, a powerful reminder to me when he was talking about, you know, beliefs come to us in one of three ways, you know, that they’re… You know, you’re born into them, you borrow them, or you build them, and it was just a good reminder, like, yeah, I can build beliefs that support my goal of making my actions and intentions match each other, and I thought that was a helpful way of thinking about it.

[00:53:46] Michael: I do too, and I think that section was the most helpful to me. Mm-hmm. And I like the distinction he made between, you know, awesome is never accidental.

[00:53:54] Megan: Yeah. Yes, that was so good too.

[00:53:56] Michael: And I th- I think it really does tie in so well with what we teach, like in life focus-

[00:54:02] Megan: Mm-hmm …

[00:54:03] Michael: you know, life planning- Mm-hmm

[00:54:04] that, uh, if you’re gonna get to the end of your days and feel proud of what you accomplished and feel satisfied with a life well lived, that’s not gonna happen by just drifting to it. Mm. It’s gonna take intention. It’s gonna take setting some goals. It’s gonna take, uh, creating a support system that enables you to get there.

[00:54:27] And you know, John’s thought through all of that. Mm-hmm. And I just feel like he, he’s such a kindred spirit. That whole thing about procrastination too, I was just thinking as he was talking about, about all this, some things I’m procrastinating, and I, I think he really nailed it when he talked about we’re trying to avoid a feeling.

[00:54:45] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:45] Michael: And that’s really the issue. You know, we, we- Yeah … just left to our natural selves, we wanna stay in the comfort zone. Why?

[00:54:53] Megan: Yeah, we wanna avoid pain.

[00:54:54] Michael: Comfort.

[00:54:54] Megan: And if you think about it, all the things that you need to think about, you know, or all the things that you need to do that are, that are purposeful, whether it’s- Take care of your health or your finances or your relationships or, you know, long-term planning or whatever.

[00:55:08] Like, all those things involve discomfort, either because you have to restrict yourself in some way and say no to some things so you can say a bigger yes later, or because you have to consider things that are really uncomfortable. You know, I think about, like, we’re, Joel and I, are really in the sandwich generation of his parents are kind of in the middle of some hard decisions and hard health situations.

[00:55:28] They’re older than you and Mom are, and there, there’s been a lot of challenges there. And, you know, a lot of it, a lot of challenges come for us, like, later in life because of things we were unwilling to consider and we just avoided, thinking they would never come or we could do it later or whatever. And, and then, like, those chickens come home to roost, and man, it’s way more painful.

[00:55:50] Like, whatever we thought we were avoiding, when we finally get to the point where it can no longer be avoided, it’s so much more painful and more costly than whatever the thing we thought we would, we would get to not have to deal with right now by avoiding it, that it’s like It, it just, it really reminds me as we’re in this stage of life and we’re watching our friends kinda doing the same thing, it’s like I wanna be a person who when I feel the desire to avoid a feeling, that’s my cue to lean into it and do it anyway, and it doesn’t matter if it’s uncomfortable.

[00:56:21] I’m not gonna get comfortable with it. Yeah. I’m just gonna l- I’m just gonna develop a tolerance for being uncomfortable. That’s the best I can hope for, and that’s enough actually, turns out.

[00:56:30] Michael: And you’re really good at it. You know, I’ve watched you develop in that area, and it’s fantastic. I was… I almost had to laugh when you were talking about being in the sandwich generation because I am, too.

[00:56:39] You know? My parents are both living and-

[00:56:41] Megan: Yeah,

[00:56:41] Michael: that’s true … facing health challenges, and we’re having to make decisions. But it is kind of a fast-forward and you see things-

[00:56:46] Megan: You’re in

[00:56:46] Michael: the

[00:56:47] Megan: club sandwich generation.

[00:56:48] Michael: Yeah.

[00:56:49] Megan: Because you have, you have adult children, grandchildren, and living parents, like, all at the same time.

[00:56:55] That’s a club sandwich, you know?

[00:56:56] Michael: It’s a lot to manage.

[00:56:57] Megan: Yeah.

[00:56:58] Michael: I’m gonna be honest.

[00:56:59] Megan: Yeah.

[00:56:59] Michael: Well, anyway, it was, it was great. I would really encourage you guys to pick up the book Procrastination Proof by John Acuff. John, J-O-N, in case you’re not looking at the video. But, um, also his book Soundtracks is one I, that I wanna go back and reread.

[00:57:14] We interviewed him on that topic, so that’s in our archive of podcasts, too. But guys, thanks so much for joining us. We never take it for granted that you s- uh, take the time to spend time with us, and we’re grateful. You know, we used to ask people to review the podcast or to give it a rating, what we’d like to ask you to do is to share it.

[00:57:32] If there’s somebody that you know that you think could benefit from this podcast, we just ask you to share it.

[00:57:39] Megan: Yeah. Do you think it’d be helpful? Just text it to somebody. It’s so fun. I love getting podcasts that way. In fact, that is my favorite way to discover a podcast is… You know, I just, like, in my perfect world, people would just send me podcasts every week because there’s so many, it’s like, what do I listen to?

[00:57:52] But when your friends- Right … or a family member sends it to you, it’s like, yes, okay, I’m listening to this when I go on my walk tomorrow or when I’m, you know, driving school pickup, and it’s just the best. So yeah, give that gift to somebody else.

[00:58:03] Michael: Okay, guys, we’ll see you next time. Until then, win at work and flourish at

[00:58:09] life.