49. CAROLINE WILLIAMS: Your Most Underrated Intelligence Center

Episode Transcript

Note: Transcript is AI-generated and may contain errors. Please refer to the episode audio or video for exact quotes.

[00:00:00] Caroline: There’s reasons why every human population on the planet pretty much has some kind of synchronized movement or dance in their culture because it helps to bond us together.

[00:00:13] Michael: Hi, I am Michael Hyatt.

[00:00:14] Megan:  And I’m Megan Hyatt Miller.

[00:00:15] Michael: And you’re listening to The Double Win Show.

[00:00:17] Megan: And guys, today we just finished the best conversation with Caroline Williams.

[00:00:23] I can’t wait to share it with you. She is a science journalist and longtime contributor to new scientists, the Guardian, BBC, future BBC Earth. She’s the author of My Plastic Brain Move and her newest book called Inner Sense, and she holds degrees in biological sciences and science communication. Now that sounds very heady, but let me tell you, she’s so easy to understand.

[00:00:51] Relatable and practical. You’re gonna learn so much. And she’s really known for her immersive first person investigations into Neuroscience and Health, and specifically the connection between movement. Bodily awareness and mental performance. There’s so many takeaways that we had from this conversation.

[00:01:09] You’re gonna have a whole list of your own, I promise. Caroline lives in the UK with her family. So without further ado, here’s our conversation with Caroline.

[00:01:22] Michael: Caroline, welcome to the show. We’re so thrilled to have you.

[00:01:25] Caroline: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:27] Michael: This is a topic, the topic about which you’ve written about in your three books that we are very, very interested in. So the word for the day class is introception. What does that word actually mean? If you break it apart, where did it come from?

[00:01:45] Caroline: I mean, when you break it down, it, it really becomes much less mysterious. So, um, it’s about internal receptors. Basically, so throughout our body, so the extra receptive senses, they’re receiving external information and they’re a lot easier to study because obviously we have specific organ sense organs.

[00:02:02] So if you wanna know how we see you look at the eyes and the bit of the brain that we know deals with vision. Same with the other external senses, but the intercept. So we have lots of receptors, sensory receptors throughout our whole body. So the ones for our visceral senses are dealt with by the vagus nerve.

[00:02:18] So that sort of stomach sensations, fullness, emptiness, um, rumbles, you know, the, the lungs expanding and contracting pretty much all our internal organs, uh, are sort of served by the, by the vagus nerve. Then you’ve got your peripheral nerves that go all the way through your body, but all of these nerves, you don’t have like a anxiety set of nerves.

[00:02:39] They all have different sensory endings. So it’s a lot more complicated trying to pick apart and, and the. Job of putting it all together is sort of in a part of the brain called the insular, which is the interceptive cortex. And that’s where it all gets kind of computed, put together with the extra external information and generates this sense of, okay, how am I feeling right now?

[00:02:59] How am I doing in the world and what do I need to do to improve my chances of being successful or surviving in our distant past?

[00:03:06] Michael: So would it be fair to say that it’s a subcategory of perception?

[00:03:09] Caroline: Yes.

[00:03:10] Michael: And I think that most people think of perception as one thing.

[00:03:13] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:13] Michael: But you’ve created some nuance here where there’s different kinds of perception.

[00:03:17] Correct.

[00:03:18] Caroline: Yeah. And to make it even more complicated, the way perception is understood now in in neuroscience, it’s not just a sort of, the brain sits there waiting for information to come in and then deals with it. The brain is constantly predicting what it expects to be perceiving based on previous experience and just what it would expect for.

[00:03:36] For having developed this body and and grown in this particular body shape. And so the brain is constantly predicting what’s coming in, and then it’s updating based on live information coming from the body. And then when that happens and nobody understands exactly how this works, if these two things clash, then either the prediction has to change or the signal has to change.

[00:03:57] And differences in how that balance happens explains why some people may have, say, panic disorder, where things get out of control and get escalated and other people are able to tamp things down. So it’s a kind of body, brain, back and forth the whole time. So perception isn’t a one way process, it’s a constant ongoing thing.

[00:04:15] Yeah. Which also means that just as your eyes can deceive you sometimes and your ears can deceive you, so in your internal senses. So they’re not always right, but they’re always information. Hmm.

[00:04:24] Michael: In your three books, you moved from brain plasticity to movement to interoception. When did you realize that performance just isn’t about the brain?

[00:04:35] Caroline: There’s three books. So in that order, that’s where I was following the science. So I’ve been covering sort of neuroscience and psychology for about 25 years. And me, along with everybody else, back 25 years ago, psychology, the mind, the brain, it was all neck up. Everything was neck up. And you know, changing anything and getting the best out of yourself was a matter of changing your brain or boosting cognition or doing something from the neck up.

[00:05:03] And that’s where I started, you know, with all the kind of things that bug me about my brain that won’t behave. You know, why can’t I concentrate when I want to? Why does creativity happen when it feels like it and not when I need it for a meeting? You know, all these things. Why can’t I navigate all these things?

[00:05:20] And so I’ve went on a little journey, going around various labs and trying to get ’em to experiment on me. But what came out of that? Was there anything that really changes anything? About the way you think and feel has something to do with the body. And so I got really intrigued by that and I thought, well, there must be something more to this than exercise gives you happy hormones.

[00:05:41] Okay, there must be more to this body brain connection. Um, I thought, I wonder if there’s any research into how specific kinds of being and, and using your body affect how you think and feel. And there was loads. And so that took me to move. And then the question arises, well, why does movement affect how you think and feel so profoundly?

[00:06:00] And the answer really is interception, which is the sense of changes and signals from within your own body. So it’s a sense, it’s an inner sense and not many people know we have, we all have it. It’s a rubbish word, you know, it makes you think of sort of accountancy or something. I don’t know, it’s not a sexy word at all, but I like to think it’s gonna be the next big word in, in sort of these sort of circles when you’re trying to think out how to get the best outta yourself.

[00:06:25] ’cause basically anything you do with your body is gonna affect the signals that are going from within your body to your brain. And that changes how your brain predicts what you are capable of and what’s gonna happen next. And then the whole thing feeds back and forward and back and forward and, and you know, we’re not a brain on legs, we are a whole organism and the whole thing matters.

[00:06:43] So it’s been, that’s been quite a journey for me to go along that and sort of work all this stuff out.

[00:06:48] Megan: So fascinating. Caroline know we were talking before we press record about who. Far community is. Mm-hmm. People that we’re talking to, that you guys were talking to today are people who like us, are probably in midlife.

[00:07:03] They’re, you know, you got a lot on your plate, more, more on your plate than you really have time to do. But, but the stuff on your plate really matters. Um, and that tension of how am I gonna get it all done? And I wanna perform at my best, because again, there are high stakes on the line and, and all of that.

[00:07:20] Why does interoception matter for people like us? Like why should we be thinking about it as we go into this conversation?

[00:07:31] Caroline: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think so. I mean, like, I’m in the same boat as sort of mess your listeners. I think, you know, midlife children, older parents, you know, sort of trying to juggle everything whilst having a career and keeping a house from turning into complete chaos.

[00:07:45] And I think where Interoception fits in is that we are so conditioned or so. Used to just sort of powering through. It’s like, I’ve got my to-do list. I’m gonna Bosch through that. Okay, I’m a bit tired, nevermind gonna keep going. I feel a bit ill, nevermind, keep going. You know, I need to eat. I’ll just shovel something in.

[00:08:04] And so we’re sort of disconnected from our own bodies because we’re so busy trying to keep our heads above water. And the reason that can become a problem is because if you are always in your head and you don’t stop to take a little beat and sort of feel inside, then you can be running on empty. You can be stressed, you can be malnourished, you can be ill, and you’re not listening to these signals.

[00:08:28] And these signals can often be telling you something important about what you need. And the reason that we, the interception is important for the mind is because these sensations and feelings are signals that tell us we need something. So hunger is the, the simplest example. You know, you, you feel that sensation I need to go and eat, you know, and it motivates you to go and look for food.

[00:08:49] And the idea is that you sense that you identify what the need is, you fulfill it, and then you go back and move on with your life. But with things like stress, you know, you might be sitting there hunched and stressed all day and after a while you tune out that sensation ’cause it’s so habitual. You don’t notice your breathing shallowly.

[00:09:05] You don’t notice your heart’s beating you in your chest. You don’t notice some of these sensations. And so you can’t deal with them. You can’t think, all right, what is causing this? Have I got too much on, can I let some of this go? Is it the people around me that are making me feel uneasy? What’s what’s happening here?

[00:09:21] And once you can tune into that. Sort of to signals you can get curious about what’s causing them and then you have to have a better chance of dealing with it, um, and looking after yourself as well as everybody else. So I think that’s where it comes in really, we’re so in our heads, we’re so overstimulated.

[00:09:36] There’s too much information from the media, from the world around us. We’ve got phones, we’ve got ping notifications coming, and the way that our attention works, we can either be attending to the world around us. You can either put your attention on the outside world. So these are our extra receptive senses.

[00:09:54] So the ones we will know about receive information from the outside world. So we can either be sort of attending to the outside world or the internal world. You can’t be doing it both at the same time. So if you are constantly out there, you can’t be in here. And so you need to be able to have the ability to tune in, deal and then tune back out again.

[00:10:11] That’s where we should ideally be. But yeah, I’d like to say I’d nailed it, but. It’s tricky.

[00:10:17] Michael: Have you listened to the telepathy tapes?

[00:10:19] Caroline: No, I have not. Should I?

[00:10:20] Michael: Oh my gosh. It’s a podcast, Megan, have you listened to it?

[00:10:23] Caroline: Yeah,

[00:10:23] Michael: it’s a scientist. She got sort of intrigued by telepathy and is it really a thing? And started studying autistic children and their ability to communicate it is crazy, but it’s pretty rigorous science, too science, so it’s worth listening to.

[00:10:37] It’s another kind of perception and communication.

[00:10:40] Caroline: Well, it’s what’s interesting with, uh, with Intraception is that it’s, it kind of underlies our, our sense of empathy as well. So what, what happens when you are talking to somebody or you are with somebody? We sort of, we mirror their body language, but we also to some extent mirror what’s going on inside their body.

[00:10:57] So if you’re with someone who’s really upset and in pain, you sort of take on some of that and we sort of understand each other’s feelings by feeling them to a lesser extent ourself. So it’s. About knowing yourself, but also it has a lot to do with how you react with other people around you and how other people affect you.

[00:11:14] Because we’re, we’re social creatures, you know, we, other people, we, we couldn’t survive on our own in our sort of ancestors days. So there’s a real important role that other people play in everything from our energy levels to how safe we feel to all sorts of things. We are sort of constantly adjusting our own bodies based on what other people are doing and making us feel,

[00:11:33] Megan: you know, I think about this being particularly important as, as I think about my own life at this stage.

[00:11:40] There’s so much going on. You know, my body’s dramatically changing. I’m in the perimenopausal transition, right? Mm-hmm. So what’s happening in my body is, is just wild, you know? Yeah. As, as anyone this season. Yeah.

[00:11:55] Caroline: With

[00:11:55] Megan: you, right? Yeah. It’s like, wow. So that’s happening, but there’s so much happening in the world around us that’s just like.

[00:12:04] Feels unprecedented in our lifetime. You know, various levels. Mm-hmm. So you’re trying to kind of process that. There’s just so many demands. I think that it can make, hearing I use air quotes to say that, you know, hearing or listening to what’s happening in our body and the signals that our body’s giving, mm-hmm.

[00:12:21] Very difficult because it’s, they feel a little scrambled. Maybe if you’re a woman in this season, there’s so much noise elsewhere. And the problem is if there are important signals that you need to hear, for example, something’s not right in your body, you know, or something’s not right in your life and your body knows it, you know, and is trying to signal you to that.

[00:12:41] If you’re not aware of how interception works, if you don’t have the ability to be embodied and come below your ears, you know, or your neck and sort of. Receive those signals, then you can miss really important things. Like something’s wrong here. You know, like a disease you could miss that your life is out of alignment in some major way that’s gonna have significant implications.

[00:13:04] So I think obviously there’s the science part of this, which we’re gonna talk a lot about, but, but this becomes very consequential in our lives. You know, I think that most of us have experienced, you know, a totally cerebral way of being, where all we’re focused on is our mindset or our thoughts. You know what we’re kind of able to think as a very limited form of intelligence.

[00:13:29] It’s just not the whole picture. And we’re missing out on a lot that could both benefit us and protect us from harm.

[00:13:36] Caroline: Talking about different life stages, it’s been known for a really long time that. Times in our lives when our bodies are changing a lot. So whether that’s puberty, pregnancy, menopause, you know, getting older, these are all risk factors for mental health issues and, and, you know, lots of of issues in our lives.

[00:13:55] And, and it’s probably no surprise because if your, uh, sense of who you are and how you are doing in the world is based on these sort of signals, some of which we can become aware of, some of which are sort of background signals we don’t know, you know, we don’t consciously feel, but they affect us anyway.

[00:14:10] If that changes. So you’re, you know, a woman forties and fifties who, you know, for better or worse, you’ve got used to the kind of weird, crazy cycle of hormones that makes you, you know, crazy one week and happy the next week, and then all of a sudden that’s gone and everything’s changing and you don’t know what to believe anymore.

[00:14:27] So it’s no surprise that these kind of big physical shifts have these big mental shifts as well. Mm-hmm. And shifts in wellbeing. ’cause you don’t know, you don’t know where you are anymore. It takes a while to, to kind of get yourself back. But you also write about the, the surrounding world because there’s evidence.

[00:14:43] So there’s, there’s a research called Mano Ris who’s in London who looks into the politics of feeling. And so he’s done a lot, lot of research into interception. And he makes the argument that one of the reasons that people are so stressed now, um, he looks at some of the, at the American election cycles and things is because the way that sort of the political climate is moving, no matter what side you are and what you believe, sort of rational debate has sort of given way to mudslinging and sort of appealing to emotions.

[00:15:15] And so everyone’s angry and everyone’s screaming at each other. And so people are being dragged around by their feelings. But if you are not tuned into what you are feeling and why, then you, you have no way of sort of. Navigating that without just feeling I, I’m anxious and I’m angry and I’m scared. And so he makes the argument that we need to help people get better at, and sort of being curious, so I’m angry, what am I angry about?

[00:15:38] You know, instead of you looking at a political story, okay, maybe look at it from a completely different standpoint. Look at two opposite ends of the political scale, how that’s being reported. Does one make me feel angry and one make me feel sad? What’s going on there? You know, what do I, and sort of to, to be curious about what we’re feeling and why.

[00:15:56] Um, but if you just allow yourself to be dragged around by the heartstrings all the time, then it’s so hard to know which way is up in this day and age, I think. Yeah, I mean the science interception, I think is one of those areas where it’s quite rare actually in science. So it’s a genuinely new perspective on the mind and on neuroscience and on health and sort of treating difficult conditions like pain and fatigue and depression and all, all these conditions that don’t have easy answers, but it’s also something that’s really, really relevant to our daily lives.

[00:16:27] And it’s also something that it’s quite easy to apply if you know about it. If you know it’s there, then you can make a bit of an effort and go, oh, you know what? I think I will just, just take a bit of time to see how I’m feeling and be curious about that and, and take rest when I need it and see how that works for me.

[00:16:43] So yeah, I think it’s running really is one of those times in science where it really is important. People tell you all the time that there’s been breakthroughs left, right, and center, but this really does feel like something important for how we live our lives and and for our health and wellbeing.

[00:16:56] Michael: Couple years ago I started therapy with a somatic experience therapist, and from there I started studying and Megan did a similar path. I started studying nervous system regulation. Doubled upon this idea of co-regulation and apropos to what you’re talking about with the political realm, I realize that other people’s emotions can have an impact on my nervous system and put me in a dysregulated state.

[00:17:25] And conversely, I can have an impact on other people if I stay regulated. Absolutely. And the key seems to be to be aware of that.

[00:17:32] Megan: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:33] Michael: When it’s happening. And I think there’s this Buddhist saying, for those of you listening know I’ve not become a Buddhist, but there are amazing sayings, and this one is, don’t take the hook.

[00:17:45] You know, so that like when you’re living, listening to people screaming at each other about some political issue, it’s a choice to enter into that and become dysregulated. And that’s why for me, man, I just have to take a breath and slow everything way down and just settle my body.

[00:18:02] Caroline: Yes. I think that’s, that’s really important to do.

[00:18:05] And so there’s been some research into fake news and, and why people believe fake news, and it’s tempting to think, oh, well, they’re just stupid. If they don’t, they don’t really think about it. But actually what they found was when people were given examples of fake news. When they were given a little time to reflect on what they read and thought, is this, does that ring true or does that seem a little bit far fetched?

[00:18:26] It didn’t matter whether it aligned with their political beliefs or not. Once they had time to reflect, they could spot fake from real. So it is really, you know, taking a little bit of a breath and going, Hmm. And the other thing I think is really important, and I, I talk about this a lot with regards to sort of wellness culture and there’s so much pseudoscience out there, people trying to sell you this magic cure to X, Y, and Z.

[00:18:49] It’s like, well just take a beat and think who’s telling me this? Why do they want me to believe them? What’s in it for them? And also what’s in it for me? You know? And if the answer is, well, they get richer, they got more powerful and it makes no difference to my life apart from I get angrier, then as you say, don’t take the hook.

[00:19:05] You have to sort of protect yourself and you have to be careful for that nowadays when, when it’s literally coming at us from all sides.

[00:19:19] Megan: Carolyn, I wanna shift gears a little bit and talk about movement again. You know, our audience and, and we as well are people who basically sit around and are paid for thinking through things. You know what I mean? Like, we’re mostly knowledge workers in some way. Um, we mostly sit at our computers throughout the day.

[00:19:38] Maybe we’re sitting in meetings, but we’re definitely sitting a lot. Yeah.

[00:19:43] Michael: Yes.

[00:19:43] Megan: Um, and we all kind of know intuitively that’s not a good thing, like we’re doing that too much. But talk a little bit about how our brains are actually evolved for movement. Not thinking like, this is, this existence is not. What we’re we’re designed for, shall we say?

[00:20:02] Caroline: Yeah. So I think it’s tempting to think, oh, we have these big, clever brains because we need to think big, clever thoughts. But actually that’s not really how we ended up this way. So you think, you know, our, our bodies and brains haven’t really changed much since we were hunter gatherers. And, and so that’s what we are sort of mostly sort of honed for.

[00:20:19] Um, and you think about the job of being a hunter-gatherer, it’s not, you know, work for dummies. You know, you can’t just wander around and hope that an antelope just falls over dead in front of you and carry it home. You know, you have to think, um, you have to work as a team. You have to have a plan. You have to outsmart your prey, and then you have to remember the way home.

[00:20:38] And if you’re the foraging side of the team, then you need to remember where the best food is, and then also how to get home and, and how to store it. So, so Hunter gathering is skilled work and ologists, uh, uh, David Reich, who’s called, who’s, who’s looked into why. His idea is about why it is. That as well as being use it or lose it for the body.

[00:20:59] So if we don’t use our bodies, they go sort of flabby, we lose muscle and capacity. The same can be said of the brain and he explains it by saying, well, we evolve to be cognitively engaged. Endurance athletes. So we’re designed to be up on our feet and moving and thinking, but thinking as well as, you know, physical strength takes a lot of energy and a lot of upkeep.

[00:21:20] So if you’re not doing the moving bit, then you lose some of, you lose some of your physical tone and prowess, but you also, your brain stops investing quite so much in making new connections and servicing the ones that are already there and keeping the blood supply good. So we do need this movement. To get the best outta our whole system, body and brain, all working together to be up on our feet and thinking and moving.

[00:21:43] That’s the ideal. I do get, you know, because my jobs as a writer and a reader of scientific studies that a lot of the time I spend sitting as well, but one interesting thing from studies of the few mo modern hunter gatherers that there still are in the world, like had the population in Tanzania, they spend about as much time resting as westerners do, but they do it in different ways.

[00:22:09] They don’t have chairs. So when they stop, they either kneel down, um, they squat and they’re constantly sort of getting up and down from the floor, which means that you are constantly using your core muscles, you’re using your leg muscles, so they’re sitting actively, whereas we just flop. So, I mean, it’s a, it’s sort of easier if you work at home or you don’t, you know, have judgmental colleagues in the office.

[00:22:29] But one way to sort of get the benefits while still sitting is to move around a lot. So, sit on the floor. I’ve got a little desk that I take and sit on the floor and fidget, get up and move, change of scenery. And in that way you can kind of engineer a little bit of that into your, into your working life.

[00:22:46] But yeah, it’s tricky. We, our life today, well known that they don’t really match up with what we were designed for. So we have to then seek out the movement that we don’t get in our everyday lives.

[00:22:57] Michael: Well, it’s hard because you can pretty much sit and engage in a virtual world. Mm-hmm. 9, 10, 12 hours a day.

[00:23:08] And never get up except to relieve yourself or get something to eat. And then even then it’s kinda like, you know, interruption Yeah. To this virtual world. And you know, what I’m looking for these days is practices. Like I work out with a strength trainer three times a week, but he’s been really on me to get walking and it’s been a little bit difficult because the weather’s not been cooperative.

[00:23:32] Yeah. At least that’s the story I’m telling myself.

[00:23:34] Caroline: It’s terrible here,

[00:23:38] Michael: but like even practical things, I wonder your thoughts on even things like, you know, a treadmill under your desk.

[00:23:44] Caroline: Yeah, I’ve been asked that a lot, um, since writing move. And my kind of answer is, I don’t think that being chained to your desk in a slightly different way is necessarily the answer.

[00:23:54] I mean, it’s it’s better than, than not, but I think, well, so what the research seems to show when we are looking at long-term brain health and sort of cognitive decline in aging and all this sort of stuff, the relationship between. Moving and brain health isn’t about how much time you spend exercising, it’s about how much time you spend sedentary.

[00:24:15] So it’s about breaking up the sedentary time. So it’s great. I’m not saying, you know, don’t do an eight hour day and then go to the gym or go at lunchtime. That’s fantastic. But more important is to break up the sitting. So one of these things that seem to be gathering momentum a little bit is the idea of movement snacks.

[00:24:33] So throughout the day. So it’s like the equivalent of food snacks. You can quite easily snack all day long without really noticing, and the calories add up, right? It’s the same with exercise, with movement. So you can do, you know, if you think, oh, I need to empty the dishwasher, you can go down, you can squat to pick it up and squat down or, or whatever.

[00:24:49] You can do little bits like that throughout the day. And they add up in ways that are good for your health, good for your wellbeing, can keep your strength better than it would otherwise be. So, so the gym is great and exercising is great, but this idea that we’ve got where, you know, exercise is what is what we do when we are not sitting down is one extreme or the other.

[00:25:08] The ideal would be to get more movement throughout our, our lives, um, and actually to maybe get it into the working day. So it’s taken me a long time to realize. As a writer, the time when I start to break through, the bit that I don’t understand in this scientific theory or the bit I don’t know how to write, is when I down tools and go stuff this and go for a walk.

[00:25:28] And it always comes to me on a walk and it’s taken me a long time to think, okay, that’s not skiving, that’s work. And there’s been studies done of people who have been sent out for a 20 minute walk around a university campus and then they come back and they do standardized tests of creative thinking and they are much more creative after a quick walk than a comparison group who just sat quietly in the room next door.

[00:25:52] And the benefits of taking a quick walk over spills for well at least 20 minutes, that’s how long they, they measured after the walk afterwards. So if you wanna do good work, it’s, it benefits you to go out and do the walk and come back. You, you get, you get all these extra benefits when you get back. But it’s kind of partially get, partly getting past the mindset of, oh, well I haven’t got time to do that.

[00:26:14] I really haven’t got time. I’ve got too much to do to go for a walk. Well, actually, you might get more done if you do.

[00:26:18] Megan: The other thing that I’ve found to be really helpful, and it’s funny, I 1000% agree on the walk. Oftentimes I’ll go out for a walk and I’ll end up calling my dad about something business related that I’ve just had some big breakthrough, like five minutes into the walk, you know, and I’m get a whole hour of that and just have so many ideas.

[00:26:35] But one of the things that I have found tremendously helpful within the workday is to look at my calendar and I do this best where the weather’s nice, but just say what on this calendar today could be a phone call that I could take while walking. We live in a very, we live and work in a very walkable area, and I know that’s not true for everybody, but even if you just have a parking lot behind your office building or your driveway, you can do this.

[00:27:00] I think post COVID, we think every meeting has to be Zoom. You know that. Yeah. Work. And actually the phone still works. You know, in some ways the phone is better. I have found that if I can just squeeze one or two meetings, whether it’s 15 minutes or 30 minutes in, and walk around the block while I’m talking.

[00:27:20] That day is exponentially better than, than the same day spent fully on Zoom. Like there’s just no context.

[00:27:28] Caroline: Yeah. And it’s funny, during, during the lockdowns you’d see people, ’cause everyone was working at home, you’d see people walking around, around my, the woods near my house were never fuller, you know, usually just dog walkers.

[00:27:38] But then it was everyone was out there and they’re all, yep, yep, yep. They were all giving their, and you think, oh, that’s great. People have discovered this and you, you’ll, you’ll see more of this. But no, it’s all gone back to normal again.

[00:27:46] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:47] Caroline: And also the benefits of the walk as well is if you’re having, if you’re having a, well this is, whether it’s a meeting with, you know, a colleague or a difficult conversation or whether it’s with a child or, or parent or you know, other relationship when you are walking, it’s just easier to have tricky conversations because you are not looking at each other.

[00:28:05] There’s no confrontation, not across a desk. And so it’s quite easy, you know, with teenagers go for a walk and just, you know, some stuff starts to. Flow out and, and you can connect better. And one of the things I looked at in move was about synchronization and the way that we move, when, when we walk together, we, we sort of fall into step.

[00:28:24] And there’s reasons why every human population on the planet pretty much has some kind of synchronized movement or dance in their culture because it helps to bond us together. So when you are moving next to me, it sort of, it confuses your sense of self. ’cause I know where my body is in space and I can see my body moving and feel my body moving.

[00:28:44] If I see your body moving along with mine, it sort of blurs that boundary between where my body ends and where’s your starts. And there’s these amazing experiments from toddlers all the way up to sort of CEOs of corporations where if you get people to move in synchrony with each other and then get them to do games where they can either collaborate or stab each other in the back, they’re far more likely to collaborate.

[00:29:06] If they’ve been walking in Synchrony or moving in Synchrony, whether it’s tapping or whatever, before they play that game. And it’s something in us that we, we feel more bonded together. We care more about each other and we’re kinder to each other. If we’ve been moving in synchrony before,

[00:29:20] Michael: you know, I know that most people, including me, are motivated by loss aversion, so I wanna talk about the stakes.

[00:29:26] If we don’t do some of these things,

[00:29:28] Caroline: mm-hmm.

[00:29:29] Michael: Over time, if I’m persistent in a sedentary lifestyle, what happens to my mental capacity, my mental agility, and just my overall mental health?

[00:29:41] Caroline: Well, it’s tricky because there’s been a lot of changes over time. One of which is it become much more sedentary. But there are some, so if you want scary statistics, there’s some statistics that say that 13% of Alzheimer’s cases can be traced to a sedentary lifestyle or affected by a sedentary lifestyle.

[00:30:01] So that’s not to say that everyone who gets Alzheimer’s has done something wrong and you know, and that if you don’t exercise, you’ve got it coming. Any none of that. ’cause things do happen for lots of different reasons. But one of the most easy, one of the easiest parts of lifestyle to protect your brain health and your capacity long-term is physical activity.

[00:30:21] The others are social connections. Mm-hmm. Having a purpose, having a community, you know, all these things are really, really important for keeping our brains healthy as we age. So yeah, that’s kind of a scary statistic, I think, but it’s one to use with caution. ’cause you don’t wanna be pointing the finger at people and saying, oh wow.

[00:30:37] Well if you just. Off your butt a bit more, you would’ve been fine. But because that’s not the case. But it definitely is a modifiable factor and risk factor in, uh, cognitive decline and, and Alzheimer’s.

[00:30:48] Megan: You know, what’s great about those two things that you just said? The need for movement, but also the need for connection, you know, physical activity mm-hmm.

[00:30:56] Connection is those things actually go really well together. You know, you can invite somebody that you wanna connect with, like you were saying a minute ago. The synchronicity idea, you know, could be a, a family member or it could be someone you wanna develop a friendship with or a relationship with.

[00:31:13] We’ve been lately talking a lot about the idea of different practices that you can use to have more human flourishing in your life. And one of, I think the distinctives of those. Or then you can accomplish a lot with relatively little time. You know, for example, you could be, I, I love to garden, so like I could be working in my garden, so I’m out in nature, I’m moving, but I could also do it with a friend, or my husband could be out there, or one of my kids could be out there with me and now all of a sudden it has a relational component instead of having to do three separate things.

[00:31:45] You know, something for physical activity, something for connection. Need to get outside. It’s like I’m actually doing all three at the same time. And so I think you get some kind of, this is very unscientific, but I think you get some kind of multiplier when you do them simultaneously, you know?

[00:32:00] Caroline: Yeah. I mean, who’s got the time to do these things separately?

[00:32:02] And it’s like, you know, oh, I should also be mindful. Well, yeah, but you can be mindful whilst moving as well. Yeah. And you know, all these, so the, these things don’t have to be done as like, oh, well now I must do this. Now I must do that. Um, but yeah, the people that that sort of live longie longest, healthiest, happiest lives usually have a lot of movement in their life, sort of incidental to their life.

[00:32:23] Mm-hmm. And good strong social connections as well as things like diet and exercise, you know, and a bit of genetic luck in there as well. But yeah, these things all feed into each other, you know, I just think of the example of my, I do at the moment, um, a, a street dance class, which is, I may not look like your average street dancer, but it’s really fun.

[00:32:40] It’s a group of, a group of women. The occasional man joins in. And we’re all, you know, d we’re different ages. We’re all very different people, but we have bonded because week after week we try and do pirouettes and fall over and do these kind of moves and end up falling over and giggling. And you know, it’s really brought us together as a group and now we really care about each other and we’re devastated that we might have to do less.

[00:33:02] ’cause teachers moving away and you know, so these, just having these kind of things you do together can just bond you together with people you might not otherwise know. And I think that kind of, that feels like something the world should know. You know, we’re also focused on what, why we’re so different. I think if you realize we we’re actually very similar by moving together and spending time together, maybe that could help make the world a little bit of a better place.

[00:33:25] Everyone should do street dance.

[00:33:27] Michael: Yes. Well, I’ve noticed, just to your point there, that you know, when we only exist in a virtual world, this is where there is so much division and conflict and that’s where it all begins. But when actually relate to people, when you talk to people with whom you think you’re.

[00:33:43] Miles apart in terms of values and all the rest, but you actually have more in common than you think. But you wouldn’t know that if you spend all your life in the virtual world.

[00:33:52] Caroline: Yes, absolutely.

[00:33:54] Michael: Absolutely.

[00:33:54] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:33:55] Michael: So for doing things together, that really helps. I wanna talk about the difference, ’cause this intrigues me between sleep, which I’ve tried to prioritize and waking rest.

[00:34:06] Caroline: Mm. What we know is that both are very important, obviously. So I’ve just been researching and writing about a phenomenon called Deep Rest, which people may have heard of. I think Andrew Huberman talks about it. But there’s a group of scientists who are looking at it in a slightly different way to how Andrew, he talks about sort of relaxation and meditation.

[00:34:26] But what this group of researchers is talking about, um, Alexandra is the lead researcher talking about. Putting the body into a restorative state. So that’s enhancing parasympathetic nerve activity. Which the easiest way to do that. You don’t need to buy anything to do that. You need, you can just breathe deeply and slowly.

[00:34:46] Six breaths per minute is a physiological sweet spot that seems to enhance vagus nerve activity and increase oxygen Respiration, um, does lots of good things basically. And when we allow ourselves to get into this state, we take it from being this always on firefighting mode. It gives us a break to get everything back down to normal so that then we are rested and ready to go up.

[00:35:12] Because the way the stress response is supposed to work is it’s supposed to be kind of full on and raise our heart rate, raise our breathing rate, get us tense and ready to move. That’s all useful as long as it goes back down again afterwards. ’cause that whole response. Costs a huge amount of energy in very real terms.

[00:35:28] There’s studies where they’ve looked at the metabolic rate of cells when they’re exposed to stress hormones and their metabolic rate increases by 60%. They burn through energy 60% faster. So you can’t keep that going, and your best way to, to restore is overnight at sleep. But there’s also some evidence that people who are in very difficult living conditions or, um, you know, very just chronically stressed by lifestyle or their social position or whatever, don’t get the restorative sleep they need.

[00:35:58] So, and all of us could probably use a bit more. So taking some time to do some deep breathing, to go in a flotation tank, to do a bit of yoga or whatever is increasingly seeing something that’s really important to get us back down to a state and then we can go and be stressed again. That’s not a problem, but we have to remember to bring ourselves down again.

[00:36:17] So both seem to be very, very important. And I think there’s some evidence now, um, recently that the sort of the metabolic cleanout that happens in our brains when we sleep happens to, to some extent while we’re in waking rest as well. So it is important. We must, we must remember that making time to properly give ourselves a break is helping us to function better afterwards.

[00:36:39] So it’s likely going out for a walk thing, don’t think you haven’t got time for it because actually. You need it, it’s gonna help in the long run. So yeah, both sleep and rest are very, very important.

[00:36:49] Michael: Are naps helpful?

[00:36:50] Caroline: Yeah, well, I’m a big fan of naps, so I’m a little bit biased on this one. Um, I think it depends on the person, ’cause some people will have a nap and, and then the rest of the day is shot.

[00:36:59] But I’m a big believer and I, I like to think it’s because I spent so much time working on my interceptive skills that now I’m like, okay, now I, I genuinely just need to have a nap and I’m not gonna feel guilty about that. I’m just gonna take 20 minutes and then I’ll be able to do what I’ve been struggling to do for an hour much faster.

[00:37:14] So yeah, I’m a big believer in naps.

[00:37:17] Michael: I’m a professional napper. Just for the record,

[00:37:19] Caroline: yeah, I think it’s a lovely thing.

[00:37:23] Michael: 20 minutes. I’ve done it every day for 50 years and. It’s really helpful

[00:37:28] Caroline: whenever I can possibly get it. I mean, it is also for me, a little bit of a toxic, uh, coping strategy. So lots of people have, you know, they get stressed, they eat too much or, or whatever, or over exercise.

[00:37:38] My toxic coping strategy is to find the nearest blanket and just hide under it. So I have to have a little word of myself before I crawl under a blanket. Am I genuinely tired or am I just hiding from that thing I don’t wanna do? Um, but yeah.

[00:37:57] Megan: One of the things that’s really become popular in probably the last 10 years, but it feels like the last two or three years really is become intense, are all of these wearables and other devices that tell us what’s happening in our body. So mm-hmm. Whether that’s your AA ring or your Apple Watch, or there’s so many different things now.

[00:38:20] Yeah. I mean, I, I’m probably not even. The latest of the latest. Now we’ve got AI coming in and helping to interpret all that data and telling us what it means. When you think about those things, are they helpful for interception or. Do they take us further away from our own kind of native intelligence.

[00:38:41] And I ask this because for example, I wore an aura ring for a while and every morning I anxiously grabbed my phone, opened the app. How do I have not, you know, what’s my score? And, and a lot of times my score would be very different. Like I would’ve thought I’d slept kind of well, but then it would be like a sleep score in the fifties or, I dunno, I don’t remember now.

[00:39:02] Yeah. But like something that would be bad or vice versa and it would just be so confusing. And I finally said, I think I’m just, I’m too anxiety prone for the AA ring. Like it’s not a good fit. My, it’s not good for my mental health to be more, yeah. That might just be me though. But I’m just curious what you think about all these wearables.

[00:39:18] I do still wear an Apple watch. I have some heart issues and I like being able to. Have that, that makes me feel good.

[00:39:25] Caroline: I actually did a little bit of self experimentation with that ’cause that’s exactly, it was a really good question. It’s one thing I was curious about as well. So you notice I don’t have anything on now.

[00:39:33] Yeah. But at one point I had, um, my Apple watch on this hand. I had a whoop band on this hand. Yeah. I had a, a chest strap, a a polar, um, heart rate sensor, which I linked up to an app, to all three of those things. I was looking at heart rate variability, a measure of stress, and you know, what I could take on.

[00:39:51] And I also had a blood sugar monitor, which I kept an eye on time. Yes. So

[00:39:55] Megan: had all those things.

[00:39:57] Caroline: All the things. Right. And with a regards to the heart rate variability, what I concluded after, you know, a few weeks of doing this was that one measure was better than three because, well, if you looked. One in isolation, you would usually see a trend like, oh, I’m feeling pretty rubbish, or I had too many glasses of wine last night, and my heart rate very, really bad.

[00:40:21] And we kind of track and it would be vaguely, you know, tracking with how I feel. So in what, in that way it’s useful ’cause it, for me anyway, it gives you permission to think there’s something going on. I feel rubbish today. My heart variability is low so maybe I’m coming down with a cold, I should take it easy or whatever.

[00:40:37] Maybe I am tired and I need a break. So that was useful. But on the other hand, they all use different snapshots from the data ’cause it’s very complicated, the data set and, and there’s different algorithms for putting them out and they’re all proprietary so you dunno what they’re, so I had three different measures and there was one particular morning when I woke up and I had my, my spreadsheet where I was tracking all the data and one of them said.

[00:41:02] Great. You can smash your goals. Go, go, go, go, go. You’re like an eight out 10. And another one said, Ooh, I think you are fighting an infection. You’re coming down with something. You need to go back to bed and you’re not well, okay. And then I had my kind of hand and how do I feel column? And the answer was, I have no idea anymore because I don’t know what to believe.

[00:41:20] And so I think they can be quite useful as a sort of a general check-in guide, but once you start living by them, I think that that takes you away. As you said, that takes you away from feeling what you actually feel and trusting that. As a sort of set of training wheels to be like, okay, I feel rubbish.

[00:41:36] Should I, should I take care of myself? Oh, my watch agrees I should take care of myself, then that can be quite useful. But I’ve now got rid of all of them and I just go by how I feel. I feel tired. I have a nap.

[00:41:47] Michael: Me

[00:41:47] Caroline: too.

[00:41:47] Michael: I

[00:41:48] Caroline: feel stressed. I’ll go and do some breathing or go and run around for a bit or, or whatever.

[00:41:52] So I try and listen, listen to myself because I think it can get to a point where your watch is running your life and telling you what to do and it’s supposed to be a tool for you rather than a, a bossy thing on your wrist and you what to do all the time.

[00:42:04] Megan: Yeah.

[00:42:05] Michael: I was wearing an ora ring. I had an eight sleep, which tracks all that same stuff through the mattress.

[00:42:13] And then I also had my Apple Health and they were all different. Yeah. Like by sleep, like you said, you know, it’s just like, did I have a good night’s sleep or not? Yeah. Well how about if I answer that question

[00:42:24] Caroline: Exactly.

[00:42:25] Michael: I’ve got a lot of experiences it turns out.

[00:42:27] Caroline: Yeah.

[00:42:28] Michael: Sleeping and knowing how I feel afterwards.

[00:42:30] So yeah, I’m sure there are some situations that they’re helpful, but yeah, after about three years of it, I just, I’ve given up on all of it.

[00:42:38] Caroline: Yeah. And I find I was intrigued by the blood sugar monitors as well, because they’re now increasingly being marketed to people who don’t have diabetes. And the trouble is there isn’t much data on whether these sort of spikes and, and, and sort of drop peaks and troughs in your blood sugar throughout the day are actually a problem if you’re not diabetic, because as long as your body can regulate, that’s fine.

[00:42:58] So do I need to know this information? And I, but I was intrigued of it because sometimes you think, oh, I’ve got low blood sugar, that’s why I’m a bit grumpy. But the, having that ability to go, actually my blood sugar’s fine, it’s not that. And sometimes I would get, I would think that I was really, really hungry because I’d get the shakes.

[00:43:15] So by wearing the monitor, I was able to look at my phone and go, no, my blood sugar is completely fine. And then. Think, okay, maybe I’m, I’ve got the shakes because this is like an adrenaline spike because I’m trying to get on a bus in a foreign country to get to the train station to get my train home.

[00:43:30] You know, this is a stress reaction. So since then, every time that happens, I don’t reach for a biscuit. I go, all right, what’s going on? Calm down. So they can sort of be useful for that sort of thing. Yeah, and the only other thing that came out of wearing the blood sugar monitor was that ate a chocolate bar and about half an hour later I woke up on the sofa and I looked at my at at the app and it, my blood sugar went whoosh at the exact time I went to sleep.

[00:43:55] So that was kind of interesting. And I guess you could say, you know that already you’re gonna have a blood sugar spike and then a crash. But to be able to see that. Has made me think twice if I, if I think I’ll reach for a chocolate bar, because I think it’s gonna give me a boost. It isn’t. I’m gonna feel worse in 20 minutes time.

[00:44:09] So that was interesting. But yeah, but I, I think there are definitely people who shouldn’t do that sort of thing if anyone’s got any sort of history of disordered eating or something. Because you can get quite easily obsessed by the numbers and then try and beat your score and think, oh, okay, well I won’t have that because that gave me a spike yesterday.

[00:44:24] Yeah. And there really isn’t the evidence to put to say that that’s a bad thing, to have a brief spike. That’s what your body’s supposed to do. You’ve got some fuel, it uses it, it puts it away, whatever. So yeah, I have mixed feelings about all these, all these wearables. They have their place, but I think don’t live by them

[00:44:42] Megan: well.

[00:44:42] And you just think like, what is the cost benefit analysis, which as far as I’m aware, has not been studied yet in detail. Mm-hmm. Between the stress that gets created by knowing all that information, you know, just the mental load alone, like, which I think is an increasingly. Increasingly as a topic we’re, we’re talking about is this idea of mental load, you know, and how much stuff we’re holding in our brains that we have to manage that.

[00:45:07] Like, people a generation ago had no concept of, we’re not thinking about, you know, nobody felt like they needed to manage, et cetera. Yeah. And now we, we have to manage and just, you know, one of the things that is, you said that made me think of this was the idea that we’re not supposed to have spikes.

[00:45:24] Caroline: Mm.

[00:45:25] Megan: This can happen with nervous system regulation, where we somehow, we believe that the goal is this place of equanimity all the time.

[00:45:33] Caroline: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:34] Megan: That we never spike. That there, basically, if we’re, if we’re doing it right in our life with our health and our mental health and everything else, that everything is totally level and calm at all times.

[00:45:45] Which is utterly impossible, whether it’s biologically or psychological.

[00:45:49] Caroline: Yeah. That’s not how we’re supposed to be. Yeah. I mean, and, and then you wouldn’t know what to do. So there’s some research that’s been done, um, Antonio Demio, uh, who’s a real big cheese in the kind of interception and body brain connection field.

[00:46:01] Um, and he did experiments years ago where if people didn’t have these kind of emotional reactions to, to choices, then they were unable to choose between things. You need to have a little bit of, woo, we don’t want that. We do want that. You do need to have these sensations, right. To push you towards something and pull you away from other things.

[00:46:17] We didn’t have that. Then you, you’re not really living and you’re not really experiencing. The world. So I think it’s not, and it’s also not realistic, is, as it says, a sort of myth in parenting that you’re supposed to be this calm, un ruffle parent. You say, I see that you’re angry with my darling at the moment, and I can, you know, sometimes I think it’s quite healthy for you to absolutely lose it and go, look, you’ve pushed me too far.

[00:46:38] You know, I think it’s, that’s human and that’s how we connect and that’s how we understand each other and how we learn. Good to get by in the world. So, yeah, I don’t think we wanna be flat all the time, because then we’d just be robotic. That would be really boring.

[00:46:50] Michael: We’re close to the end of our time, and you’ve been very generous with your time, so thank you.

[00:46:53] It’s been a fascinating conversation. What are the questions I have is, based on all the research that you’ve done, and you’re on the cutting edge of this, how has it affected your daily and weekly practices? What are the non-negotiable practices, habits, rituals, whatever mm-hmm. That you’ve incorporated as a result of your.

[00:47:11] Because I think this would be helpful to all of us. We may wanna incorporate some of those as well.

[00:47:15] Caroline: Yeah, I’m, I’m really bad at rituals. I, I would say I get bored of things very quickly, move on. But I’ve always had, always through my life, I’ve had something that I do regularly. That’s my movement.

[00:47:26] Non-negotiable. So throughout my twenties I was into trapeze. When I lived in London, I used to do static trapeze. That was my fun ’cause it was a bit, bit of strength, bit of dance, bit of just swinging around, having a laugh. So that was my thing. I don’t do that anymore because I don’t live near it. But now I do my street dance.

[00:47:41] And you, a constant through the background has been yoga. Always do yoga. ’cause it’s one of the few times I slow down and breathe and take my own advice and, and really get within my body. I guess the non-negotiable, and I can’t say this too loud ’cause somebody will come in and start barking, but taking my dog out is a non-negotiable every day because otherwise he’ll, he’ll kind of.

[00:48:01] Drive me crazy, but also for my own mental health. And, you know, there’s all this cool research that I really love about how walking helps you feel like you’re making progress. Because the way that embodied cognition is works is that when you are moving forward through space, it gives the illusion of, of moving forward and making progress sort of mentally as well as physically.

[00:48:21] So there’ve lots of really cool experiments. Like it’s easier to think about the future when you’re moving forward. The future feels like it’s coming closer towards you, and the bad stuff, which you, you sort of imagine is behind you is further away. So that’s a really simple thing that has good evidence behind it.

[00:48:36] That’s very simple to do. And I always ask my non-negotiable for, for many, many reasons.

[00:48:41] Megan: And it’s free.

[00:48:42] Caroline: And it’s free. Exactly. So many of these things, you know, people always wanna sell you stuff and, you know, Vegas nerve stimulators and this supplement and that supplement and this particular type of, um, exercise.

[00:48:52] But yeah, walking is free. Running is free. Um, I’m not really a runner, but you know, some people love it. Breathing is free. Lying down and closing your eyes is free. You know, most of what we need to look after ourselves, we already have if we just make time for it. And I think that’s why I’m so keen to bring the science of it to the sort of popular conversation because somehow if someone says, oh no, but there’s, there’s scientific research that backs up that this is good for you and if you don’t do it, it’s really bad.

[00:49:20] Makes you make the time for it. At least it does for me anyway. So, um, hopefully that will help people.

[00:49:25] Michael: Okay. The beautiful thing about this episode is that not only have we illuminated the concept of interception, not only have we talked to people about how they can increase their cognitive abilities or creativity there.

[00:49:40] Nervous system regulation and all that, but we’ve just saved them a ton of money.

[00:49:45] Caroline: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I spend money when you don’t have to, you know, everyone’s trying to get your hand, their hands on your money. No need, don’t bother. Ignore the in, uh, the Instagram ads and just do the free stuff.

[00:49:56] Michael: Well, Caroline, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much. I hope one day we have the opportunity to meet in person, so if you’re ever Yeah. In the US and in Tennessee, where we live.

[00:50:06] Caroline: Oh, I would love to never been to Tennessee. I would love to, I will definitely look you up if I come over. But yeah, thank you so much for having me.

[00:50:11] It’s been, um, been really nice chatting to you. And can you see my dog is now up? Yeah, you’re

[00:50:16] Megan: walking. Car is ready to go out.

[00:50:18] Caroline: Yeah, he’s born ready.

[00:50:21] Megan: Love it. Thanks Caroline.

[00:50:22] Caroline: Thank you.

[00:50:34] Michael: Okay, so let’s talk about our takeaways from this session with Caroline. Man, I was so having to restrain myself and keep from interrupting you because selfishly I had my own list of questions that I wanted to ask. Yeah. But she kind of is, is the right person for us at the right time because we’ve also been studying many of these things over the last several years.

[00:50:55] We’ve had guests on to talk about, you know, neuro system regulation and somatic experience therapy and some of these different things and cognition. So. I dunno, what did you take away from it?

[00:51:07] Megan: Well, I think we’ve kind of steadily been on a journey both individually together as a, as an organization kind of building on in some ways moving away from, I guess, but building on a lot of the stuff that we talked about more, you know, around mindset as being a, a, certainly an important part of this whole picture, but not the whole picture, you know, that the body was for a long time, kind of the forgotten part of the brain in many ways, and the forgotten partner in our performance and in our ability to live a meaningful life.

[00:51:43] And so I think you and I have both kind of been on this journey of learning about and making space for our bodies, for the information that they give us, for the limitations that they have, rather than something to just sort of ignore, override or sort of a necessary evil. It’s like, no, this is really important.

[00:52:01] A profound source of intelligence. And I think that’s what she can explain why that’s true in ways that maybe became more illuminated through this conversation.

[00:52:10] Michael: My own history and thinking about this is I’ve kind of divided everything into two spheres. You know, there’s like the brain part of me and there’s the body part of me.

[00:52:21] Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I’ve had a history of working out and doing all the things with my body, but that was almost like doing something with another person. It wasn’t integral to who I am. And I definitely didn’t see the mind body connection, although I may have used that phrase in the past. But I think I’ve grown to understand that.

[00:52:39] And I think Caroline is a, is a terrific guide in leading, leading us into that. And I think to gain more trust in our body and to use it more, you know, and overall healthfulness and even in thinking better and thinking better longer. Right now, one of the things I’m really working on in. You and I have a mutual trainer, Alex, who works with us as a trainer.

[00:53:04] One of the things he’s been really pushing me on is the non strength day movement. So getting out there and getting my steps in, and I don’t know why that has become so hard for me, but it always feels like an interruption. You know what I’m saying? It’s kinda like, yeah, oh, I got so much to do. I don’t have time to move.

[00:53:25] I don’t have time to go for a walk. But the truth is, based on what Caroline shared with us, that actually may be a productivity hack that when you’re stuck, go for a walk.

[00:53:38] Megan: Absolutely. I also think that walking for people, a lot of people in our community might be a hard concept because if you’re prone toward like a metro sized way of thinking about life, like you want.

[00:53:52] You wanna before and then after you wanna know, like again, we’re talking about, you know, the idea of wearables and you wanna know how many calories you’ve burned. And like walking is basically useless in that part. I mean, you, you’ll burn so few calories, you’re like, I feel like I could have done anything and done better than that.

[00:54:06] You know? So it’s not, it doesn’t fit into sort of a productive box in the way that like, kind of what she was talking about, kind of an older model of physical activity, you know, of like, I’m going to exercise. Like walking feels like dinky, you know? Like if

[00:54:22] Michael: you were really serious, if you were really serious, you’d go for a run,

[00:54:26] Megan: right?

[00:54:27] You’d get so many miles or you do CrossFit or something like more intense. And so I think it’s hard sometimes to, it’s like what is the value proposition of walking? One of the things that was really helpful for me years ago with movement, because I used to like, I tried so many things that I just was not consistent at.

[00:54:44] And what I found is I’ve gotta find something that I actually love, like some kind of movement. Like I love that she talked about doing like. What do you call it? Being a, a trape artist? Yeah. I dunno. True. Anyway, I’m thinking of all funny words that might, might be the, the right way to say that. Or her dance idea.

[00:55:01] You know, for me when walking became easy for me it was because I actually did it because I loved doing it. Not because it was a box to check, but like there was pleasure in the walking itself, not in the achievement of having done my quote exercise. It was like, I actually just look forward to doing this because it feels good to do it, not because it’s something I’m supposed to do.

[00:55:24] And I, I don’t know. I feel like that was a breakthrough for me.

[00:55:27] Michael: I don’t know if this is a negative thing or a positive thing. I’d love your opinion on it, but I think the only time I’ve really looked forward to walking and there was a time when I really looked forward to it and running as well, was when I was listening to an audio book.

[00:55:41] Yeah. Or podcast. I, because otherwise I have to make space in my life to do that stuff. Right. I idle pretty fast. I like doing stuff, and so to go on a walk and listen to an audiobook is a great way for me to also stimulate myself intellectually.

[00:55:58] Megan: I have two thoughts on that. One. I think if it works, great, do it.

[00:56:04] The other is, I think for people like us, this is like almost like a spiritual work thing, but there’s actually like a work, and I mean that like a spiritual discipline sort of, of learning how to go slow. Like it’s a practice of learning to downregulate without stimulation. I don’t say that ’cause that comes easily to me, or I do it well, I, I say that because it’s hard for me.

[00:56:30] It’s hard for me and I find in my own life that like when I can do things slowly, it’s an indication that I’m in a good place. When I can’t do things without stimulation. It’s like when I’m, when I’m not in a good place, it looks like two things. I’m either. Hyper activated. You know, I’m like in kind of turbo drive, which is very, a very well worn path for me.

[00:56:56] Or I’m like, faceplant and like, there’s no in the middle like that. What she, what does she call it? Active rest?

[00:57:02] Michael: Yeah.

[00:57:03] Megan: Or waking rest. Waking. Waking rest. When I’m doing well and I’m like attending well to myself, I can do things slowly without feeling anxious. Like I can walk slow, I can putter in my garden, I can cook slow.

[00:57:20] I can listen to my kids without being annoyed that they’re not getting to the point fast enough. Which like yesterday I did very badly. And anyway, that’s a whole other story, but that’s a good indication of, of how I’m doing. And so what I would say to you is maybe the point isn’t avoiding that it’s hard.

[00:57:37] Maybe the point is learning to create more space for doing things slowly as a, a. Sort of barometer of how you’re doing. You know,

[00:57:48] Michael: a good indicator for me would be how fast I drive because yeah, I walk fast, I talk fast, I drive fast. I get really annoyed with people that you know, just, yes, the speed limit.

[00:57:59] Like, don’t you go anywhere to go?

[00:58:02] Megan: Like annoyance is a really good indicator. Like I find that like I, when I’m just like ticked off, like at dumb stuff, like why are you, let’s go. If I’m saying literally the words coming outta my mouth are, let’s go. Like that’s a problem.

[00:58:17] Michael: Well as you know, we have this brand new assessment that we is still in beta, so we haven’t announced it to the world.

[00:58:22] But one of the things that indicated based on my personality is that I’m impatient with other people’s pace. Right. That’s like one of my weaknesses. Yeah. Like

[00:58:32] Megan: that’s not good.

[00:58:33] Michael: Pick up the pace.

[00:58:34] Megan: Right.

[00:58:34] Michael: But it’s really about me, not about them.

[00:58:37] Megan: And I think to the point of this conversation, we can actually use our bodies to help regulate that can.

[00:58:44] Do things like physical things with our bodies where our bodies actually help to regulate our mind instead of our mind trying to regulate our body. And the solution obviously isn’t. Other people need to speed up. I mean, I think we all know like it’s not gonna work very well, but like gardening, yoga, walking,

[00:59:03] Caroline: fishing,

[00:59:04] Megan: fishing would be great.

[00:59:05] Golf, like golf, you can’t do any of that stuff fast.

[00:59:09] Caroline: True.

[00:59:10] Megan: And that’s, I think that’s exactly what we need or more of those things in our lives. So that was, I think one of my big takeaways was I need to be intentional and I do this well when the weather’s nice and I do it much less well when the, like right now where this time me recording me dead of winter and I’m so over it and, and I’m, I’m doing, I’m not bouncing back from a regulation standpoint as well as I do when I’m outdoors in the sun, in my garden, walking, et cetera.

[00:59:37] And I gotta figure that out.

[00:59:38] Michael: Yeah, me too. Will. As you guys can clearly see, we’re a work in process and sometimes a hot mess, but we’re moving forward little by little. Well, guys, if you’ve enjoyed this episode and if you’re enjoying our podcast, we wanna encourage you to rate it. And if you’d be so kind to actually write a short review that helps move the podcast up in the writings so that more people are exposed to the devil win.

[01:00:02] Because what we’re really after is human flourishing in the form of both winning at work and succeeding at life. So thanks for joining us. We’ll see you next week.